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No offense intended towards anyone, but it usually strikes me how basic/surface level literature references are here. For a crowd pretty much defined by intelle

No offense intended towards anyone, but it usually strikes me how basic/surface level literature references are here. For a crowd pretty much defined by intellectual curiosity, it's mostly highschool reads, very mainstream scifi/fantasy and corporate self help. I wonder if it's an american thing, for engineers to be detached of liberal arts? The vibe tends to be quite different in local engineering groups.

emodendroket 10mo ago
There is some real stuff in there if you scroll through but I don’t disagree with your point. But it is easier to perform/identify oneself with intellectual curiosity than to truly be intellectually curious.
DashAnimal 10mo ago
I think it's more about how using "most" as a measurement, no matter who the audience is that you pool from, is not a good way of producing a valuable list. In the end, having someone learned and well read produce a hand-written list with deeper cuts brings more value.
BeetleB 10mo ago
I think two factors are in play: The first is that there is likely more diversity the deeper you go down the intellectual hole. You and I may read much more sophisticated books, but the books you read and the ones I read differ significantly. Thus, the list is biased towards the more popular (it is, after all, a popularity list). Second is this: > for engineers to be detached of liberal arts? Most of us just haven't found value in the other types of books. It would help if you gave some examples of books that should be here. For me (perhaps as an engineer), I like books to kind of get to the point. When it comes to fiction, I'm a very firm believer that, although a given novel may give great commentary about a social/philosophical issue, its primary purpose is entertainment. If I wanted to understand the underlying social/philosophical issue, a more direct, nonfiction book will always do a better job. I've yet to find someone "changed" because of fiction. Those I know who claim to already had the sentiments before they read that piece of fiction, and the story was merely preaching to the choir. What they are glorifying is how well the story depicted an issue.
- GeoAtreides 10mo ago
  Behold a super-satured solution. A crystal touches it and where before was a liquid, now hard unyielding crystals spring forward, hard enough to scratch diamond. Some books are seed crystals, changing the shapeless into eternal forms.
  - BeetleB 10mo ago
    Let me know when you find such a book ;-)
    - GeoAtreides 10mo ago
      All books can be seed crystals, provided they find an appropriate super saturated solution in their readers (that was my point, actually, as a counter argument to OP's "preaching to the choir". Although the super saturated solution is already there, it needs to seed crystal to (physically) transform).
- torben-friis 10mo ago
  >although a given novel may give great commentary about a social/philosophical issue, its primary purpose is entertainment. If I wanted to understand the underlying social/philosophical issue, a more direct, nonfiction book will always do a better job. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding there, if you think all the potential value of a fiction book is some commentary padded by a story. Good fiction usually exercises the mind in ways a non-fiction book never would. You experience life through someone else's eyes, you try to understand someone's mind by the actions they take and the words they say, you wonder in a meta-plane what the author is trying to show, you see language being used in non-common ways to provoke emotions or express ideas, you wonder how you would have acted in someone's shoes... Saying the author could get to the point quicker is like saying that lifting weights in the gym is done faster with a forklift, the process is the point rather than the extracted output. There is also a fundamental difference between being told 'pain is an unpleasant feeling that living beings take effort to avoid' and being punched in the face. Fiction gives you a fraction of the extra wisdom you get with the latter. >It would help if you gave some examples of books that should be here. That's the thing, there is not specific book I could recommend that is most likely change your life for the better, for the same reason there is no single specific equation I can mention that will make someone good at math if they solve it. Some exercises are better, some are pointless, but it's the act of engaging that counts in the long term. My comment about this list had no implication that the books at the top of the list were less valuable than other hidden works; they're just a sign of a path not travelled quite far, if that makes sense. And leaving aside the usefulness of it all, pleasant experiences not all amount to entertaining. You'd probably agree that having sex with the love of your life and watching TV are not equivalent experiences, even if you come out of both with roughly the same level of self-improvement.
desmoulins 10mo ago
The context of these book titles appearing in comments might skew the results. Ulysses is high up on the list, but the source comments have a lot of people using it as an example of a lengthy, difficult book. I read a lot, but if I'm going to use a book to make a point or example in a comment, which will be read by someone I don't know, I'll reference a well-known book that most people have heard of, even if it was just from 9th grade English class, instead of something more obscure.
TheAceOfHearts 10mo ago
Most people will barely read through a couple basics, so it can be a bit of a though sell to start recommending more niche stories. And part of the reason that some of these books are so successful is that they tend to have pretty widespread appeal, while more niche books will be more divisive and less likely to get recommended broadly. If you're so well-read why don't you grace us with some of your non-mainstream S-tier recommendations? From this list, one of the books that I recommend to everyone is Piranesi, which is fairly mainstream, and if they want to explore Russian magical realism then Vita Nostra. Unsong is another favorite. In general I love to explore magic systems that experiment with breaking a system, or stories that explore how different rules might interact within a system. I think people sometimes underestimate the value of lighter more fun reads, like cultivation stories. The best western adaptation of this style of novel is probably the Cradle series, by Will Wight. Even though the stories tend to be fairly light, they're quite enjoyable for exploring new modes of thinking. For example, we can analyze the interactions of energy as an abstract / symbolic form, and how it influences human behavior; which is an abstract / symbolic application of the cultivation lens over reality. To give an easier to understand example: Feng Shui isn't real but it's true, in the sense that the way in which we organize furniture within a space determines how people navigate it and how they interact. And why might this be useful? Well, sometimes we fail to see the full picture when using a single lens, and different lens might let us see things in a new light. I've read some terribly generic web novel slop and gotten fairly unique and interesting perspectives from them, but most people aren't good enough readers to enjoy bad books, so they can only read and enjoy good books.
rramadass 10mo ago
Not surprising. It is just "herd mentality" and "parroting" which is the bane of all general Social Groups/Crowds. There are some well-known (generally not too taxing and not necessarily good) books which keep being amplified. One or two might be worthwhile but most would be mainstream and pedestrian.
globular-toast 10mo ago
It seems quite obvious to me why it looks like this, and other people have explained it. All I'll say is if you meet someone who doesn't read, please please encourage them to try a "highschool read" or something "very mainstream" and don't put them off for life with some obscure liberal arts piece. If someone hasn't read something you read in high school, it's still better than they read it now.
- torben-friis 10mo ago
  >All I'll say is if you meet someone who doesn't read, please please encourage them to try a "highschool read" or something "very mainstream" and don't put them off for life with some obscure liberal arts piece. I think you assumed implications in my comment that weren’t at all intended. By all means read whatever you enjoy, and by keeping at it you’ll eventually reach less known work just as a side effect of getting deeper in your niches. As I said in another comment, I just see the selection as a sign of a lack of exploration. It’s not that the books themselves are bad -the original super Mario is a nice game, but if it’s the only game being significantly mentioned the crowd is probably not really into gaming. It’s just surprising to me that the HN crowd isn’t really into literature.
  - globular-toast 10mo ago
    I haven't read much "deeper" than the stuff in the list and most people I meet read way less than I do. Many read approximately zero by my estimations. I have a PhD so I know how deep the rabbit holes goes. I just think between TV, social media, kids etc. most people don't have time to do something that demands complete attention, sadly.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
owenversteeg 10mo ago
I don't think it's particularly American; people these days read at a lower level around the world. Language aside, most bookstores in Europe and the US have a fair bit in common.

emodendroket 10mo ago

There is some real stuff in there if you scroll through but I don’t disagree with your point. But it is easier to perform/identify oneself with intellectual curiosity than to truly be intellectually curious.

DashAnimal 10mo ago

I think it's more about how using "most" as a measurement, no matter who the audience is that you pool from, is not a good way of producing a valuable list. In the end, having someone learned and well read produce a hand-written list with deeper cuts brings more value.

BeetleB 10mo ago

I think two factors are in play: The first is that there is likely more diversity the deeper you go down the intellectual hole. You and I may read much more sophisticated books, but the books you read and the ones I read differ significantly. Thus, the list is biased towards the more popular (it is, after all, a popularity list). Second is this: > for engineers to be detached of liberal arts? Most of us just haven't found value in the other types of books. It would help if you gave some examples of books that should be here. For me (perhaps as an engineer), I like books to kind of get to the point. When it comes to fiction, I'm a very firm believer that, although a given novel may give great commentary about a social/philosophical issue, its primary purpose is entertainment. If I wanted to understand the underlying social/philosophical issue, a more direct, nonfiction book will always do a better job. I've yet to find someone "changed" because of fiction. Those I know who claim to already had the sentiments before they read that piece of fiction, and the story was merely preaching to the choir. What they are glorifying is how well the story depicted an issue.

GeoAtreides 10mo ago
Behold a super-satured solution. A crystal touches it and where before was a liquid, now hard unyielding crystals spring forward, hard enough to scratch diamond. Some books are seed crystals, changing the shapeless into eternal forms.
- BeetleB 10mo ago
  Let me know when you find such a book ;-)
  - GeoAtreides 10mo ago
    All books can be seed crystals, provided they find an appropriate super saturated solution in their readers (that was my point, actually, as a counter argument to OP's "preaching to the choir". Although the super saturated solution is already there, it needs to seed crystal to (physically) transform).
torben-friis 10mo ago
>although a given novel may give great commentary about a social/philosophical issue, its primary purpose is entertainment. If I wanted to understand the underlying social/philosophical issue, a more direct, nonfiction book will always do a better job. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding there, if you think all the potential value of a fiction book is some commentary padded by a story. Good fiction usually exercises the mind in ways a non-fiction book never would. You experience life through someone else's eyes, you try to understand someone's mind by the actions they take and the words they say, you wonder in a meta-plane what the author is trying to show, you see language being used in non-common ways to provoke emotions or express ideas, you wonder how you would have acted in someone's shoes... Saying the author could get to the point quicker is like saying that lifting weights in the gym is done faster with a forklift, the process is the point rather than the extracted output. There is also a fundamental difference between being told 'pain is an unpleasant feeling that living beings take effort to avoid' and being punched in the face. Fiction gives you a fraction of the extra wisdom you get with the latter. >It would help if you gave some examples of books that should be here. That's the thing, there is not specific book I could recommend that is most likely change your life for the better, for the same reason there is no single specific equation I can mention that will make someone good at math if they solve it. Some exercises are better, some are pointless, but it's the act of engaging that counts in the long term. My comment about this list had no implication that the books at the top of the list were less valuable than other hidden works; they're just a sign of a path not travelled quite far, if that makes sense. And leaving aside the usefulness of it all, pleasant experiences not all amount to entertaining. You'd probably agree that having sex with the love of your life and watching TV are not equivalent experiences, even if you come out of both with roughly the same level of self-improvement.

desmoulins 10mo ago

The context of these book titles appearing in comments might skew the results. Ulysses is high up on the list, but the source comments have a lot of people using it as an example of a lengthy, difficult book. I read a lot, but if I'm going to use a book to make a point or example in a comment, which will be read by someone I don't know, I'll reference a well-known book that most people have heard of, even if it was just from 9th grade English class, instead of something more obscure.

TheAceOfHearts 10mo ago

Most people will barely read through a couple basics, so it can be a bit of a though sell to start recommending more niche stories. And part of the reason that some of these books are so successful is that they tend to have pretty widespread appeal, while more niche books will be more divisive and less likely to get recommended broadly. If you're so well-read why don't you grace us with some of your non-mainstream S-tier recommendations? From this list, one of the books that I recommend to everyone is Piranesi, which is fairly mainstream, and if they want to explore Russian magical realism then Vita Nostra. Unsong is another favorite. In general I love to explore magic systems that experiment with breaking a system, or stories that explore how different rules might interact within a system. I think people sometimes underestimate the value of lighter more fun reads, like cultivation stories. The best western adaptation of this style of novel is probably the Cradle series, by Will Wight. Even though the stories tend to be fairly light, they're quite enjoyable for exploring new modes of thinking. For example, we can analyze the interactions of energy as an abstract / symbolic form, and how it influences human behavior; which is an abstract / symbolic application of the cultivation lens over reality. To give an easier to understand example: Feng Shui isn't real but it's true, in the sense that the way in which we organize furniture within a space determines how people navigate it and how they interact. And why might this be useful? Well, sometimes we fail to see the full picture when using a single lens, and different lens might let us see things in a new light. I've read some terribly generic web novel slop and gotten fairly unique and interesting perspectives from them, but most people aren't good enough readers to enjoy bad books, so they can only read and enjoy good books.

rramadass 10mo ago

Not surprising. It is just "herd mentality" and "parroting" which is the bane of all general Social Groups/Crowds. There are some well-known (generally not too taxing and not necessarily good) books which keep being amplified. One or two might be worthwhile but most would be mainstream and pedestrian.

globular-toast 10mo ago

It seems quite obvious to me why it looks like this, and other people have explained it. All I'll say is if you meet someone who doesn't read, please please encourage them to try a "highschool read" or something "very mainstream" and don't put them off for life with some obscure liberal arts piece. If someone hasn't read something you read in high school, it's still better than they read it now.

torben-friis 10mo ago
>All I'll say is if you meet someone who doesn't read, please please encourage them to try a "highschool read" or something "very mainstream" and don't put them off for life with some obscure liberal arts piece. I think you assumed implications in my comment that weren’t at all intended. By all means read whatever you enjoy, and by keeping at it you’ll eventually reach less known work just as a side effect of getting deeper in your niches. As I said in another comment, I just see the selection as a sign of a lack of exploration. It’s not that the books themselves are bad -the original super Mario is a nice game, but if it’s the only game being significantly mentioned the crowd is probably not really into gaming. It’s just surprising to me that the HN crowd isn’t really into literature.
- globular-toast 10mo ago
  I haven't read much "deeper" than the stuff in the list and most people I meet read way less than I do. Many read approximately zero by my estimations. I have a PhD so I know how deep the rabbit holes goes. I just think between TV, social media, kids etc. most people don't have time to do something that demands complete attention, sadly.

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

owenversteeg 10mo ago

I don't think it's particularly American; people these days read at a lower level around the world. Language aside, most bookstores in Europe and the US have a fair bit in common.