5 ms·

> Literally every business is based on the idea of tacking on a margin onto someone else's work and profiting from it. Which is fine if everyone knows what’s h

by Aurornis 11mo ago

> Literally every business is based on the idea of tacking on a margin onto someone else's work and profiting from it. Which is fine if everyone knows what’s happening. Nobody assumes that their grocery stores or Best Buy are operating as charities that take 0% margin. What’s not okay is signing up to a company as an employee, being given access to their Slack and Git, and then handing those credentials and source code over to someone you hired on Fiverr so you can go vacation more. The numerous problems with this should be obvious. > I struggle to think there is a company in the world where this kind of behavior would fly, but if there is then they must be satisfied with the work (or lack thereof I guess) That’s the thing about most Tim Ferriss advice: Much of it is fanciful and unrealistic. The takeaway isn’t literally that you should be responding to email once a week, it’s that you need to be pushing the limits of how much you can get away with not responding to things and ignoring conversations with your coworkers. The email autoresponder is held up as a North Star ideal of what you’re trying to do: Hide from work and avoid contributing to the team you’re on. As for companies being happy with it: They’re generally not! The story in the book is to gradually push the limits of what you can get away with. It suggests working extra hard when you know your boss is watching and doing things like sandbagging your productivity before you go remote. The book has this whole idea that your job is only temporary anyway until your side hustle takes over and replaces your income (dropshipping T-shirts is the example used in the book) so being a productive employee isn’t a priority.

Nextgrid 11mo ago
> What’s not okay is signing up to a company as an employee Oh no, someone dared to lie to a business, the horror! Only the reverse is acceptable. You should not do this because you haven't found a unicorn that is both cheap and worthy of entrusting with your reputation. If you find such a magical unicorn, you should absolutely do this and nobody will notice since the unicorn is upholding your standards. How much of a "unicorn" this is depends on your own reputation, the work quality you're expected to do, and so on. If you're that stupid to hand over credentials to a bottom-of-the-barrel gig worker website, you would've lost those credentials in the next phishing campaign anyway, so the outcome for the company isn't any different - they made a stupid hire (whether said stupidity is done by the employee or the subcontractor is of little consolation). > pushing the limits of how much you can get away with Again that's literally what every company does - with raising prices, reducing quality (doing their own outsourcing - which this place considers ok because the boss is pocketing the margin) all the time. Every A/B test is a test of how much they can get away with. But again we seem to have this double-standard where businesses are given leeway (and even applauded for) for a lot of noxious behavior while individuals are punished. Of course businesses have an outsized ability to control the narrative so no surprise there. > They’re generally not! A company is never happy though. In their ideal desires you would work 24/7 for zero pay, and even then they would not be happy that you are human and physically limited in how much output you can produce. I've seen all the behaviors you mention in people that are working in the office - and worse, some are actually working, but so bad at it it would be better if they were actually slacking off; at least they'd enjoy themselves. > your job is only temporary anyway In tech it kind of is though? See layoffs and such. Again I'm not defending the practice and I'm the first one to loathe the enshittification of everything. But if shit behavior appears to be profitable and the local maximum the market has settled on, I don't think it's fair for individuals to be held at different standards.
- jama211 11mo ago
  Not who you were just speaking with, but I’ve never agreed with the emotional side of a comment so much whilst disagreeing with the actionable choices side so much. In reality, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I would draw the line before outsourcing my own job, but I’ve definitely sandbagged my own productivity after being poorly treated by a company in the past and still have no regrets about it. If you’re looking for common ground with who you’re speaking with rather than trying to make your point so firmly, I think you’d also agree there is a level of meeting in the middle that is totally reasonable in how hard you should push such things, depending on who you work for and how they treat you.
  - Nextgrid 11mo ago
    > the actionable choices side so much I just have a knee-jerk reaction to the double standard between companies and individuals. Enshittification appears to be the new normal, no reason they shouldn't get a bit of their own medicine. > meeting in the middle that is totally reasonable Yes of course - employee-owned companies and the occasional outliers that give employees a tangible stake in the outcome. But those generally would not be vulnerable to this attack to begin with since employee effort is appropriately rewarded. But for the average company, doing the bare minimum to keep your job is the winning strategy since doing more will not result in a proportional reward.
    - jama211 11mo ago
      I can feel your pain in your comments, and when I was deep working for a company that treated me like crap I’d have been exactly the same way. I’m now in a company that treats me with great respect. No, I don’t have an actual stake in the company, but they’ve always treated me really well with regards to giving me all the freedom and autonomy and respect I’ve asked for, so I actually enjoy doing more than the bare minimum now with my workmates, and that’s ok too.
      - Nextgrid 11mo ago
        Post-pandemic we are all being treated like shit every day as consumers. Enshittification is bad, but if it's the new normal I find it desirable for the companies practicing it to get the same treatment in return from their own suppliers (employees or subcontractors). Given long enough it should put pressure on paying more for actually good work (aka those who don't slack off get paid more), or at the very least move some of the proceeds from enshittification from the company's boss into the slackers' pockets.
jama211 11mo ago
You both make some good points

Nextgrid 11mo ago

> What’s not okay is signing up to a company as an employee Oh no, someone dared to lie to a business, the horror! Only the reverse is acceptable. You should not do this because you haven't found a unicorn that is both cheap and worthy of entrusting with your reputation. If you find such a magical unicorn, you should absolutely do this and nobody will notice since the unicorn is upholding your standards. How much of a "unicorn" this is depends on your own reputation, the work quality you're expected to do, and so on. If you're that stupid to hand over credentials to a bottom-of-the-barrel gig worker website, you would've lost those credentials in the next phishing campaign anyway, so the outcome for the company isn't any different - they made a stupid hire (whether said stupidity is done by the employee or the subcontractor is of little consolation). > pushing the limits of how much you can get away with Again that's literally what every company does - with raising prices, reducing quality (doing their own outsourcing - which this place considers ok because the boss is pocketing the margin) all the time. Every A/B test is a test of how much they can get away with. But again we seem to have this double-standard where businesses are given leeway (and even applauded for) for a lot of noxious behavior while individuals are punished. Of course businesses have an outsized ability to control the narrative so no surprise there. > They’re generally not! A company is never happy though. In their ideal desires you would work 24/7 for zero pay, and even then they would not be happy that you are human and physically limited in how much output you can produce. I've seen all the behaviors you mention in people that are working in the office - and worse, some are actually working, but so bad at it it would be better if they were actually slacking off; at least they'd enjoy themselves. > your job is only temporary anyway In tech it kind of is though? See layoffs and such. Again I'm not defending the practice and I'm the first one to loathe the enshittification of everything. But if shit behavior appears to be profitable and the local maximum the market has settled on, I don't think it's fair for individuals to be held at different standards.

jama211 11mo ago
Not who you were just speaking with, but I’ve never agreed with the emotional side of a comment so much whilst disagreeing with the actionable choices side so much. In reality, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I would draw the line before outsourcing my own job, but I’ve definitely sandbagged my own productivity after being poorly treated by a company in the past and still have no regrets about it. If you’re looking for common ground with who you’re speaking with rather than trying to make your point so firmly, I think you’d also agree there is a level of meeting in the middle that is totally reasonable in how hard you should push such things, depending on who you work for and how they treat you.
- Nextgrid 11mo ago
  > the actionable choices side so much I just have a knee-jerk reaction to the double standard between companies and individuals. Enshittification appears to be the new normal, no reason they shouldn't get a bit of their own medicine. > meeting in the middle that is totally reasonable Yes of course - employee-owned companies and the occasional outliers that give employees a tangible stake in the outcome. But those generally would not be vulnerable to this attack to begin with since employee effort is appropriately rewarded. But for the average company, doing the bare minimum to keep your job is the winning strategy since doing more will not result in a proportional reward.
  - jama211 11mo ago
    I can feel your pain in your comments, and when I was deep working for a company that treated me like crap I’d have been exactly the same way. I’m now in a company that treats me with great respect. No, I don’t have an actual stake in the company, but they’ve always treated me really well with regards to giving me all the freedom and autonomy and respect I’ve asked for, so I actually enjoy doing more than the bare minimum now with my workmates, and that’s ok too.
    - Nextgrid 11mo ago
      Post-pandemic we are all being treated like shit every day as consumers. Enshittification is bad, but if it's the new normal I find it desirable for the companies practicing it to get the same treatment in return from their own suppliers (employees or subcontractors). Given long enough it should put pressure on paying more for actually good work (aka those who don't slack off get paid more), or at the very least move some of the proceeds from enshittification from the company's boss into the slackers' pockets.

jama211 11mo ago

You both make some good points