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> We can only cure this if we get serious about penalties Saying that in the country with world-leading mass incarceration mostly due to its decades long “war

> We can only cure this if we get serious about penalties Saying that in the country with world-leading mass incarceration mostly due to its decades long “war on drugs” which has very much not cured drug problems is a perfect example of putting ideological preconceptions ahead of reality.

wredcoll 11mo ago
> Saying that in the country with world-leading mass incarceration mostly due to its decades long “war on drugs” which has very much not cured drug problems is a perfect example of putting ideological preconceptions ahead of reality. I wish I could emphasize this even more. There are some situations where certain types of punishments in certain situations will achieve societal behavior change. There's a lot more where it doesn't and people absolutely to apply any kind of scientific thought to it.
- dragonwriter 11mo ago
  > There are some situations where certain types of punishments in certain situations will achieve societal behavior change. > There's a lot more where it doesn't Or, at least, not the behavior change you are hoping for.
- wredcoll 11mo ago
  Hmm, that last sentence is really missing a "refuse to"
ck2 11mo ago
most people who get put in jail/prison for drugs do not get a "taste" of how horrible it is and get years right off the bat for first offense that's why I proposed five steps starting with warning, weekend, then week in jail if you spend a weekend in jail and don't change your behavior from doing something wildly dangerous yet absolutely not addicting, well then proceed to a year in prison note I am not saying put people in prison simply for smoking dope, it's not legal here but there are no serious penalties if caught I don't care what people do in their homes You drive on the road stoned when I am riding my bike or running and put my life in danger, you definitely deserve some time to think about it behind bars I've been "grazed" on the road many time over the years, I have no idea if people are drunk or stoned or just looking at their phones but I am okay with my five step idea for ALL of those cases, but they will never be caught anyway until they murder someone and then it's too late
- galleywest200 11mo ago
  WA state already has a "three strikes you are out" law (life in prison), but laws like this are racially biased and used against minorities far more. https://www.courts.wa.gov/subsite/mjc/docs/2024/Three-strikes-report-FINAL%20v3.pdf https://www.courts.wa.gov/subsite/mjc/docs/2024/Three-strike...
- fatal94 11mo ago
  Driving towards a solution of "imprisoning more people" as punishment rather than other punishment have never succeeded. Many states already have first time drug offender and strike programs, people are already imprisoned over a weekend for things even as simple as misdemeanor possession until they can get a bail set. Rehabilitative forms of punishments such as severe fines, community service or mandatory classes and broadcasting them is much more effective in actually driving down rates of impaired drivers. Whats more, police officers already have a wide authority of judgement when considering these factors around marijuana impairment currently. Relying on subjective evaluation from FST and physical presentation will only result in a higher rate of non impaired drivers being imprisoned.
jama211 11mo ago
Very well said. It worries me how quick people are to leap to “we’ll just imprison people that’ll help” despite endless data that says the opposite
loeg 11mo ago
We have world-leading criminality rates. Given that, the only alternatives are world-leading incarceration, or just letting criminals roam around making law-abiders' lives worse.
- ben_w 11mo ago
  There's a lot of different ways to measure crime, making it hard to compare between nations. The people who try anyway, mostly put the USA as fairly middling, nothing special either way.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
- dragonwriter 11mo ago
  > We have world-leading criminality rates. That's what happens when you use criminalization and penal slavery to replace chattel slavery.
  - loeg 11mo ago
    Progressive love to repeat this, but it doesn't make it true.
    - dragonwriter 11mo ago
      > Progressive love to repeat this, but it doesn't make it true. Conservatives love to deny this, but it doesn't make it false. That criminalization was an immediate, direct substitute for chattel slavery is extensively documented, and that the patterns of criminalization used for that purpose became culturally entrenched and spread (even where the particular practices on top of that served to make it a replacement for chattel slavery, like convict leasing, generally did not in their original form beyond the South, though commercial exploitation of coerced prison labor did become a widespread national phenomenon, even though there has been some winding back in some jurisdictions of that particular practice in recent years.)
- 11mo ago

wredcoll 11mo ago

> Saying that in the country with world-leading mass incarceration mostly due to its decades long “war on drugs” which has very much not cured drug problems is a perfect example of putting ideological preconceptions ahead of reality. I wish I could emphasize this even more. There are some situations where certain types of punishments in certain situations will achieve societal behavior change. There's a lot more where it doesn't and people absolutely to apply any kind of scientific thought to it.

dragonwriter 11mo ago
> There are some situations where certain types of punishments in certain situations will achieve societal behavior change. > There's a lot more where it doesn't Or, at least, not the behavior change you are hoping for.
wredcoll 11mo ago
Hmm, that last sentence is really missing a "refuse to"

ck2 11mo ago

most people who get put in jail/prison for drugs do not get a "taste" of how horrible it is and get years right off the bat for first offense that's why I proposed five steps starting with warning, weekend, then week in jail if you spend a weekend in jail and don't change your behavior from doing something wildly dangerous yet absolutely not addicting, well then proceed to a year in prison note I am not saying put people in prison simply for smoking dope, it's not legal here but there are no serious penalties if caught I don't care what people do in their homes You drive on the road stoned when I am riding my bike or running and put my life in danger, you definitely deserve some time to think about it behind bars I've been "grazed" on the road many time over the years, I have no idea if people are drunk or stoned or just looking at their phones but I am okay with my five step idea for ALL of those cases, but they will never be caught anyway until they murder someone and then it's too late

galleywest200 11mo ago
WA state already has a "three strikes you are out" law (life in prison), but laws like this are racially biased and used against minorities far more. https://www.courts.wa.gov/subsite/mjc/docs/2024/Three-strikes-report-FINAL%20v3.pdf https://www.courts.wa.gov/subsite/mjc/docs/2024/Three-strike...
fatal94 11mo ago
Driving towards a solution of "imprisoning more people" as punishment rather than other punishment have never succeeded. Many states already have first time drug offender and strike programs, people are already imprisoned over a weekend for things even as simple as misdemeanor possession until they can get a bail set. Rehabilitative forms of punishments such as severe fines, community service or mandatory classes and broadcasting them is much more effective in actually driving down rates of impaired drivers. Whats more, police officers already have a wide authority of judgement when considering these factors around marijuana impairment currently. Relying on subjective evaluation from FST and physical presentation will only result in a higher rate of non impaired drivers being imprisoned.

jama211 11mo ago

Very well said. It worries me how quick people are to leap to “we’ll just imprison people that’ll help” despite endless data that says the opposite

loeg 11mo ago

We have world-leading criminality rates. Given that, the only alternatives are world-leading incarceration, or just letting criminals roam around making law-abiders' lives worse.

ben_w 11mo ago
There's a lot of different ways to measure crime, making it hard to compare between nations. The people who try anyway, mostly put the USA as fairly middling, nothing special either way.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
dragonwriter 11mo ago
> We have world-leading criminality rates. That's what happens when you use criminalization and penal slavery to replace chattel slavery.
- loeg 11mo ago
  Progressive love to repeat this, but it doesn't make it true.
  - dragonwriter 11mo ago
    > Progressive love to repeat this, but it doesn't make it true. Conservatives love to deny this, but it doesn't make it false. That criminalization was an immediate, direct substitute for chattel slavery is extensively documented, and that the patterns of criminalization used for that purpose became culturally entrenched and spread (even where the particular practices on top of that served to make it a replacement for chattel slavery, like convict leasing, generally did not in their original form beyond the South, though commercial exploitation of coerced prison labor did become a widespread national phenomenon, even though there has been some winding back in some jurisdictions of that particular practice in recent years.)
11mo ago