5 ms·

I live in a "working poor" neighborhood 50% of the people on this street get stoned before driving to work, every single day dope isn't even legal here and ev

by ck2 10mo ago

I live in a "working poor" neighborhood 50% of the people on this street get stoned before driving to work, every single day dope isn't even legal here and even if it was DUI is wildly illegal We can only cure this if we get serious about penalties because we can't undo murder and injuries How about first time warning, second time weekend in jail, third time week in jail, fourth time month in jail, fifth time year in prison

dragonwriter 10mo ago
> We can only cure this if we get serious about penalties Saying that in the country with world-leading mass incarceration mostly due to its decades long “war on drugs” which has very much not cured drug problems is a perfect example of putting ideological preconceptions ahead of reality.
- wredcoll 10mo ago
  > Saying that in the country with world-leading mass incarceration mostly due to its decades long “war on drugs” which has very much not cured drug problems is a perfect example of putting ideological preconceptions ahead of reality. I wish I could emphasize this even more. There are some situations where certain types of punishments in certain situations will achieve societal behavior change. There's a lot more where it doesn't and people absolutely to apply any kind of scientific thought to it.
  - dragonwriter 10mo ago
    > There are some situations where certain types of punishments in certain situations will achieve societal behavior change. > There's a lot more where it doesn't Or, at least, not the behavior change you are hoping for.
  - wredcoll 10mo ago
    Hmm, that last sentence is really missing a "refuse to"
- ck2 10mo ago
  most people who get put in jail/prison for drugs do not get a "taste" of how horrible it is and get years right off the bat for first offense that's why I proposed five steps starting with warning, weekend, then week in jail if you spend a weekend in jail and don't change your behavior from doing something wildly dangerous yet absolutely not addicting, well then proceed to a year in prison note I am not saying put people in prison simply for smoking dope, it's not legal here but there are no serious penalties if caught I don't care what people do in their homes You drive on the road stoned when I am riding my bike or running and put my life in danger, you definitely deserve some time to think about it behind bars I've been "grazed" on the road many time over the years, I have no idea if people are drunk or stoned or just looking at their phones but I am okay with my five step idea for ALL of those cases, but they will never be caught anyway until they murder someone and then it's too late
  - galleywest200 10mo ago
    WA state already has a "three strikes you are out" law (life in prison), but laws like this are racially biased and used against minorities far more. https://www.courts.wa.gov/subsite/mjc/docs/2024/Three-strikes-report-FINAL%20v3.pdf https://www.courts.wa.gov/subsite/mjc/docs/2024/Three-strike...
  - fatal94 10mo ago
    Driving towards a solution of "imprisoning more people" as punishment rather than other punishment have never succeeded. Many states already have first time drug offender and strike programs, people are already imprisoned over a weekend for things even as simple as misdemeanor possession until they can get a bail set. Rehabilitative forms of punishments such as severe fines, community service or mandatory classes and broadcasting them is much more effective in actually driving down rates of impaired drivers. Whats more, police officers already have a wide authority of judgement when considering these factors around marijuana impairment currently. Relying on subjective evaluation from FST and physical presentation will only result in a higher rate of non impaired drivers being imprisoned.
- jama211 10mo ago
  Very well said. It worries me how quick people are to leap to “we’ll just imprison people that’ll help” despite endless data that says the opposite
- loeg 10mo ago
  We have world-leading criminality rates. Given that, the only alternatives are world-leading incarceration, or just letting criminals roam around making law-abiders' lives worse.
  - ben_w 10mo ago
    There's a lot of different ways to measure crime, making it hard to compare between nations. The people who try anyway, mostly put the USA as fairly middling, nothing special either way.
    - deleted 10mo ago
      [deleted]
  - dragonwriter 10mo ago
    > We have world-leading criminality rates. That's what happens when you use criminalization and penal slavery to replace chattel slavery.
    - loeg 10mo ago
      Progressive love to repeat this, but it doesn't make it true.
      - dragonwriter 10mo ago
        > Progressive love to repeat this, but it doesn't make it true. Conservatives love to deny this, but it doesn't make it false. That criminalization was an immediate, direct substitute for chattel slavery is extensively documented, and that the patterns of criminalization used for that purpose became culturally entrenched and spread (even where the particular practices on top of that served to make it a replacement for chattel slavery, like convict leasing, generally did not in their original form beyond the South, though commercial exploitation of coerced prison labor did become a widespread national phenomenon, even though there has been some winding back in some jurisdictions of that particular practice in recent years.)
  - 10mo ago
Sparkle-san 10mo ago
Maybe we can declare our intent to eliminate drug use with harsh penalties using a metaphor, like going to war against them. That should do the trick.
shiandow 10mo ago
It's interesting. You begin by describing the circumstances and then conclude the problem must be fixed by changing individual behaviour.
walletdrainer 10mo ago
> How about first time warning, second time weekend in jail, third time week in jail, fourth time month in jail, fifth time year in prison Those laws exist, and often result in people who should be receiving treatment spending years of their life in prison. Someone who gets 5+ DUIs isn’t likely to be deterred by schemes like this

by ck2 10mo ago

dragonwriter 10mo ago

> We can only cure this if we get serious about penalties Saying that in the country with world-leading mass incarceration mostly due to its decades long “war on drugs” which has very much not cured drug problems is a perfect example of putting ideological preconceptions ahead of reality.

wredcoll 10mo ago
> Saying that in the country with world-leading mass incarceration mostly due to its decades long “war on drugs” which has very much not cured drug problems is a perfect example of putting ideological preconceptions ahead of reality. I wish I could emphasize this even more. There are some situations where certain types of punishments in certain situations will achieve societal behavior change. There's a lot more where it doesn't and people absolutely to apply any kind of scientific thought to it.
- dragonwriter 10mo ago
  > There are some situations where certain types of punishments in certain situations will achieve societal behavior change. > There's a lot more where it doesn't Or, at least, not the behavior change you are hoping for.
- wredcoll 10mo ago
  Hmm, that last sentence is really missing a "refuse to"
ck2 10mo ago
most people who get put in jail/prison for drugs do not get a "taste" of how horrible it is and get years right off the bat for first offense that's why I proposed five steps starting with warning, weekend, then week in jail if you spend a weekend in jail and don't change your behavior from doing something wildly dangerous yet absolutely not addicting, well then proceed to a year in prison note I am not saying put people in prison simply for smoking dope, it's not legal here but there are no serious penalties if caught I don't care what people do in their homes You drive on the road stoned when I am riding my bike or running and put my life in danger, you definitely deserve some time to think about it behind bars I've been "grazed" on the road many time over the years, I have no idea if people are drunk or stoned or just looking at their phones but I am okay with my five step idea for ALL of those cases, but they will never be caught anyway until they murder someone and then it's too late
- galleywest200 10mo ago
  WA state already has a "three strikes you are out" law (life in prison), but laws like this are racially biased and used against minorities far more. https://www.courts.wa.gov/subsite/mjc/docs/2024/Three-strikes-report-FINAL%20v3.pdf https://www.courts.wa.gov/subsite/mjc/docs/2024/Three-strike...
- fatal94 10mo ago
  Driving towards a solution of "imprisoning more people" as punishment rather than other punishment have never succeeded. Many states already have first time drug offender and strike programs, people are already imprisoned over a weekend for things even as simple as misdemeanor possession until they can get a bail set. Rehabilitative forms of punishments such as severe fines, community service or mandatory classes and broadcasting them is much more effective in actually driving down rates of impaired drivers. Whats more, police officers already have a wide authority of judgement when considering these factors around marijuana impairment currently. Relying on subjective evaluation from FST and physical presentation will only result in a higher rate of non impaired drivers being imprisoned.
jama211 10mo ago
Very well said. It worries me how quick people are to leap to “we’ll just imprison people that’ll help” despite endless data that says the opposite
loeg 10mo ago
We have world-leading criminality rates. Given that, the only alternatives are world-leading incarceration, or just letting criminals roam around making law-abiders' lives worse.
- ben_w 10mo ago
  There's a lot of different ways to measure crime, making it hard to compare between nations. The people who try anyway, mostly put the USA as fairly middling, nothing special either way.
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
- dragonwriter 10mo ago
  > We have world-leading criminality rates. That's what happens when you use criminalization and penal slavery to replace chattel slavery.
  - loeg 10mo ago
    Progressive love to repeat this, but it doesn't make it true.
    - dragonwriter 10mo ago
      > Progressive love to repeat this, but it doesn't make it true. Conservatives love to deny this, but it doesn't make it false. That criminalization was an immediate, direct substitute for chattel slavery is extensively documented, and that the patterns of criminalization used for that purpose became culturally entrenched and spread (even where the particular practices on top of that served to make it a replacement for chattel slavery, like convict leasing, generally did not in their original form beyond the South, though commercial exploitation of coerced prison labor did become a widespread national phenomenon, even though there has been some winding back in some jurisdictions of that particular practice in recent years.)
- 10mo ago

Sparkle-san 10mo ago

Maybe we can declare our intent to eliminate drug use with harsh penalties using a metaphor, like going to war against them. That should do the trick.

shiandow 10mo ago

It's interesting. You begin by describing the circumstances and then conclude the problem must be fixed by changing individual behaviour.

walletdrainer 10mo ago

> How about first time warning, second time weekend in jail, third time week in jail, fourth time month in jail, fifth time year in prison Those laws exist, and often result in people who should be receiving treatment spending years of their life in prison. Someone who gets 5+ DUIs isn’t likely to be deterred by schemes like this