4 ms·

Yea I agree.. better outsource product development, management, and everything else too by that narrative

zbentley 10mo ago
That’s pretty reductive. By that logic the opposite extreme is just as true: if using managed services is just as bad as outsourcing everything else, then a business shouldn’t rent real estate either—every business should build and own their own facility. They should also never contract out janitorial work, nor should they retain outside law firms—they should hire and staff those departments internally, every time, no nuance allowed. You see the issue? Like, I’m all for not procuring things that it makes more sense to own/build (and I know most businesses have piss-poor instincts on which is which—hell, I work for the government! I can see firsthand the consequences of outsourcing decision making to contractors, rather than just outsourcing implementation). But it’s very case-by-case. There’s no general rule like “always prefer self hosting” or “always rent real estate, never buy” that applies broadly enough to be useful.
- jama211 10mo ago
  So well said, I like the technique of taking their logic and turning it around, never seen that before but it’s smart.
  - antihipocrat 10mo ago
    In my experience it only ends well on the Internet and with philosophically inclined friends.
    - jama211 10mo ago
      Anything ending well on the internet is like a mythical unicorn though
- gopher_space 10mo ago
  I'll be reductive in conversations like this just to help push the pendulum back a little. The prevailing attitude seems (to me) like people find self-hosting mystical and occult, yet there's never been a better time to do it. > But it’s very case-by-case. There’s no general rule like “always prefer self hosting” or “always rent real estate, never buy” that applies broadly enough to be useful. I don't know if anyone remembers that irritating "geek code" thing we were doing a while back, but coming up with some kind of shorthand for whatever context we're talking about would be useful.
  - zbentley 10mo ago
    No argument here, that’s a fair and thoughtful response, and you’re not wrong regarding the prejudice against self-hosting (and for what it’s worth I absolutely come from the era where that was the default approach, have done it extensively, like it, and still do it/recommend it when it makes sense). > “ geek code" thing we were doing a while back Not sure what you’re referring to. “Shibboleet”, perhaps? https://xkcd.com/806/ https://xkcd.com/806/
    - gopher_space 10mo ago
      > The Geek Code, developed in 1993, is a series of letters and symbols used by self-described "geeks" to inform fellow geeks about their personality, appearance, interests, skills, and opinions. The idea is that everything that makes a geek individual can be encoded in a compact format which only other geeks can read. This is deemed to be efficient in some sufficiently geeky manner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek_Code
      - foo42 10mo ago
        geek code is worthy of its own hn submission
nemothekid 10mo ago
Unironically - I agree. You should be outsourcing things that aren't your core competency. I think many people on this forum have a certain pride about doing this manually, but to me it wouldn't make sense in any other context. Could you imagine accountants arguing that you shouldn't use a service like Paychex or Gusto and just run payroll manually? After all it's cheaper! Just spend a week tracking taxes, benefits and signing checks. Self-hosting, to me, doesn't make sense unless you are 1.) doing something not offered by the cloud or a pathological use case 2.) or running a hobby project or 3.) you are in maintaince mode on the product. Otherwise your time is better spent on your core product - and if it isn't, you probably aren't busy enough. If the cost of your RDS cluster is so expensive relative to your traffic, you probably aren't charging enough or your business economics really don't make sense. I've managed large database clusters (MySQL, Cassandra) on bare metal hardware in managed colo in the past. I'm well aware of the performance thats being left on the table and what the cost difference is. For the vast majority of businesses, optimizing for self hosting doesn't make sense, especially if you don't have PMF. For a company like 37signals, sure, product velocity probably is very high, and you have engineering cycles to spare. But if you aren't profitable, self hosting won't make you profitable, and your time is better spent elsewhere.
- belorn 10mo ago
  You can outsource everything, but outsourcing critical parts of the company may also put the existence of the company in the hand of a third-party. Is that an acceptable risk? Control and risk management cost money, be that by self hosting or contracts. At some point it is cheaper to buy the competence and make it part of the company rather than outsource it.
  - nemothekid 10mo ago
    I think you and I simply disagree about your database being a core/critical part of your stack. I believe RDS is good enough for most people, and the only advantage you would have in self hosting is shaving 33% off your instance bill. I'd probably go a step further and argue that Neon/CockroachDB Serverless is good enough for most people.

That’s pretty reductive. By that logic the opposite extreme is just as true: if using managed services is just as bad as outsourcing everything else, then a business shouldn’t rent real estate either—every business should build and own their own facility. They should also never contract out janitorial work, nor should they retain outside law firms—they should hire and staff those departments internally, every time, no nuance allowed. You see the issue? Like, I’m all for not procuring things that it makes more sense to own/build (and I know most businesses have piss-poor instincts on which is which—hell, I work for the government! I can see firsthand the consequences of outsourcing decision making to contractors, rather than just outsourcing implementation). But it’s very case-by-case. There’s no general rule like “always prefer self hosting” or “always rent real estate, never buy” that applies broadly enough to be useful.

jama211 10mo ago
So well said, I like the technique of taking their logic and turning it around, never seen that before but it’s smart.
- antihipocrat 10mo ago
  In my experience it only ends well on the Internet and with philosophically inclined friends.
  - jama211 10mo ago
    Anything ending well on the internet is like a mythical unicorn though
gopher_space 10mo ago
I'll be reductive in conversations like this just to help push the pendulum back a little. The prevailing attitude seems (to me) like people find self-hosting mystical and occult, yet there's never been a better time to do it. > But it’s very case-by-case. There’s no general rule like “always prefer self hosting” or “always rent real estate, never buy” that applies broadly enough to be useful. I don't know if anyone remembers that irritating "geek code" thing we were doing a while back, but coming up with some kind of shorthand for whatever context we're talking about would be useful.
- zbentley 10mo ago
  No argument here, that’s a fair and thoughtful response, and you’re not wrong regarding the prejudice against self-hosting (and for what it’s worth I absolutely come from the era where that was the default approach, have done it extensively, like it, and still do it/recommend it when it makes sense). > “ geek code" thing we were doing a while back Not sure what you’re referring to. “Shibboleet”, perhaps? https://xkcd.com/806/ https://xkcd.com/806/
  - gopher_space 10mo ago
    > The Geek Code, developed in 1993, is a series of letters and symbols used by self-described "geeks" to inform fellow geeks about their personality, appearance, interests, skills, and opinions. The idea is that everything that makes a geek individual can be encoded in a compact format which only other geeks can read. This is deemed to be efficient in some sufficiently geeky manner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek_Code
    - foo42 10mo ago
      geek code is worthy of its own hn submission

nemothekid 10mo ago

Unironically - I agree. You should be outsourcing things that aren't your core competency. I think many people on this forum have a certain pride about doing this manually, but to me it wouldn't make sense in any other context. Could you imagine accountants arguing that you shouldn't use a service like Paychex or Gusto and just run payroll manually? After all it's cheaper! Just spend a week tracking taxes, benefits and signing checks. Self-hosting, to me, doesn't make sense unless you are 1.) doing something not offered by the cloud or a pathological use case 2.) or running a hobby project or 3.) you are in maintaince mode on the product. Otherwise your time is better spent on your core product - and if it isn't, you probably aren't busy enough. If the cost of your RDS cluster is so expensive relative to your traffic, you probably aren't charging enough or your business economics really don't make sense. I've managed large database clusters (MySQL, Cassandra) on bare metal hardware in managed colo in the past. I'm well aware of the performance thats being left on the table and what the cost difference is. For the vast majority of businesses, optimizing for self hosting doesn't make sense, especially if you don't have PMF. For a company like 37signals, sure, product velocity probably is very high, and you have engineering cycles to spare. But if you aren't profitable, self hosting won't make you profitable, and your time is better spent elsewhere.

belorn 10mo ago
You can outsource everything, but outsourcing critical parts of the company may also put the existence of the company in the hand of a third-party. Is that an acceptable risk? Control and risk management cost money, be that by self hosting or contracts. At some point it is cheaper to buy the competence and make it part of the company rather than outsource it.
- nemothekid 10mo ago
  I think you and I simply disagree about your database being a core/critical part of your stack. I believe RDS is good enough for most people, and the only advantage you would have in self hosting is shaving 33% off your instance bill. I'd probably go a step further and argue that Neon/CockroachDB Serverless is good enough for most people.