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Thanks for posting that; as soon as I saw the title here I was going to look that up if no one else had already. Sabine Hossenfelder too, though there's far to

Thanks for posting that; as soon as I saw the title here I was going to look that up if no one else had already. Sabine Hossenfelder too, though there's far too much content from her on this to put a list, but anyone interested might like some of her takes. A few debates between Brian and other notables; Hossenfelder, Eric Weinstein, and Roger Penrose to name a few; have popped up in my youtube feed lately which are typically also engaging.

UncleMeat 10mo ago
Hossenfelder is not really comparable to Collier. Collier's video is critical of string theory as a testable framework but she ultimately still supports people who do research in string theory. Most of her criticism is with media coverage of string theory, not the research or the researchers. Hossenfelder has gone off the "the physics establishment is all idiots and they are suppressing the real physics" deep end and has converted specific complaints into trashing the entire field.
- tejohnso 10mo ago
  I thought her rant about bullshit papers was pretty convincing and poignant.
  - 20k 10mo ago
    The problem with sabine is that she's become the worst person to make a correct point for the wrong reasons If you do research it becomes pretty apparent that a high number papers are not great. There's varying issues, but a big one is that the funding model incentivises pumping out papers which are often of low quality, researching whatever happens to be in vogue at the moment Literally everyone I've ever talked to in research as a frank conversation knows that this is a massive problem, but nobody wants to talk about it publicly. Research funding is already completely screwed as it is, and researchers are incredibly aware of how fragile their livelihoods are Its clearly leading to a big reduction in the quality of the literature. I went on a replication spree recently and found that a pretty decent chunk of the field I was working in was completely unreplicable by me, with a few papers that I strongly suspect 'massaged' their results for various reasons I wish someone would talk about this who wasn't also in bed with right wing grifters, and was actually credible. We need someone more like ben goldacre for physics Sabine's most interesting content is the paper reviews, and where she sticks to actually examining the evidence - but it makes up a tiny fraction of what she produces these days, and her support for some truly grim figures is just gross
    - BurningFrog 10mo ago
      If I understood this, you agree with Sabine, but since she's "in bed with right wing grifters" she should not be listened to? This is not very persuasive.
      - 20k 10mo ago
        I agree with a part of Sabine's overall output, but she's increasingly misidentifying some of the problems and the solutions because she's drifted too far towards the grifters To a large degree if you're trying to successfully trying to push for change, it really matters that the person pushing for it is credible. Someone like ben goldacre is able to credibly make a strong push for change within medicine because they've maintained credibility, someone like sabine makes the situation worse because they've chucked it away
        BurningFrog 10mo ago
        Maybe it's like this: Sabine's has a day job as a Youtuber, and she makes her videos from that perspective. She speaks her mind, makes a decent living, and educates some science nerds on the way. Seems pretty nice. From the perspective of accomplishing institutional change in the academic physics world, this is does nothing. The institutional powers don't react at all to a complaining influencer with an Einstein doll. And I suspect she's perfectly fine with that. Overturning the Physics establishment is a near impossible task. I would leave that for those mad enough to try.
    - tejohnso 10mo ago
      Your paragraphs two, three and four are exactly what Sabine is communicating. So much so that it almost sounds like you pulled a transcript from one of her videos. I don't think you're describing "the" problem with Sabine. She's not what you want her to be but that's a you problem. You're describing your particular problem with Sabine. I appreciate that she's doing a lot to bring attention to the real issue despite your claim that she is supporting grim figures. I know about the problem because of her work, but I have no idea who Ben goldacre is. Also no idea what you mean by supporting grim figures. I checked to see if she has come out in support of Jeffrey Epstein or something crazy like that, but no.
- athrowaway3z 10mo ago
  I'm not a fan of Hossenfelder, especially for casting quacks like Weinstein, but AFAICT she isn't about "suppressing the real physics" but more of a "establishment physics is wasting money and time, and a lot is equally bad/good as some alternative physics."
  - raverbashing 10mo ago
    Yeah I think most of what (negative) people attribute to her is mostly her being hopelessly German. Most, but not all
    - Levitating 10mo ago
      Don't agree, she spreads misinformation, she's disrespectful to other scientists and basically has resorted to just claiming that everything in academics is wrong. YouTube fame has completely radicalized her.
    - vjvjvjvjghv 10mo ago
      I am German and I don’t think so. She is just another influencer who is living in her little social media bubble.
  - Levitating 10mo ago
    I think here more recent takes are not nearly as nuanced.
    - vjvjvjvjghv 10mo ago
      She proves my theory that people who are successful on social media will lose their minds over time. It’s too easy to fall into the contrarian or cheerleading trap because there is too much money and fame in it. Being nuanced is boring and doesn’t sell
  - UncleMeat 10mo ago
    A year ago that might have been the case. Her more recent stuff is fairly dire. I believe that the algorithm encourages her and channels like hers to become more and more conspiratorial and less and less nuanced.
- Levitating 10mo ago
  Collier made a video fairly recently where she showed disappointment that her videos are watched by people who also watch Hossenfelder. https://youtu.be/miJbW3i9qQc https://youtu.be/miJbW3i9qQc
- hn_throwaway_99 10mo ago
  > Most of her criticism is with media coverage of string theory, not the research or the researchers. I pretty strongly disagree with that categorization of Collier's video, as it makes it sound like string theorists were innocent bystanders and "the big bad media" just ran overboard. I think she puts the blame squarely on string theorists (e.g. "celebrity string theorists who wrote all these books") as constantly hyping up the field with promises of "in a decade it will be amazing" - a phrase she uses to great dramatic effect throughout the video - despite never acknowledging the fact that it fails miserably at making testable predictions. When she says "they lied to us", the "they" she's clearly talking about are specific researchers in the field (which she names), and the string research community more broadly, who are hyping up their field, not just "the media".

UncleMeat 10mo ago

Hossenfelder is not really comparable to Collier. Collier's video is critical of string theory as a testable framework but she ultimately still supports people who do research in string theory. Most of her criticism is with media coverage of string theory, not the research or the researchers. Hossenfelder has gone off the "the physics establishment is all idiots and they are suppressing the real physics" deep end and has converted specific complaints into trashing the entire field.

tejohnso 10mo ago
I thought her rant about bullshit papers was pretty convincing and poignant.
- 20k 10mo ago
  The problem with sabine is that she's become the worst person to make a correct point for the wrong reasons If you do research it becomes pretty apparent that a high number papers are not great. There's varying issues, but a big one is that the funding model incentivises pumping out papers which are often of low quality, researching whatever happens to be in vogue at the moment Literally everyone I've ever talked to in research as a frank conversation knows that this is a massive problem, but nobody wants to talk about it publicly. Research funding is already completely screwed as it is, and researchers are incredibly aware of how fragile their livelihoods are Its clearly leading to a big reduction in the quality of the literature. I went on a replication spree recently and found that a pretty decent chunk of the field I was working in was completely unreplicable by me, with a few papers that I strongly suspect 'massaged' their results for various reasons I wish someone would talk about this who wasn't also in bed with right wing grifters, and was actually credible. We need someone more like ben goldacre for physics Sabine's most interesting content is the paper reviews, and where she sticks to actually examining the evidence - but it makes up a tiny fraction of what she produces these days, and her support for some truly grim figures is just gross
  - BurningFrog 10mo ago
    If I understood this, you agree with Sabine, but since she's "in bed with right wing grifters" she should not be listened to? This is not very persuasive.
    - 20k 10mo ago
      I agree with a part of Sabine's overall output, but she's increasingly misidentifying some of the problems and the solutions because she's drifted too far towards the grifters To a large degree if you're trying to successfully trying to push for change, it really matters that the person pushing for it is credible. Someone like ben goldacre is able to credibly make a strong push for change within medicine because they've maintained credibility, someone like sabine makes the situation worse because they've chucked it away
      - BurningFrog 10mo ago
        Maybe it's like this: Sabine's has a day job as a Youtuber, and she makes her videos from that perspective. She speaks her mind, makes a decent living, and educates some science nerds on the way. Seems pretty nice. From the perspective of accomplishing institutional change in the academic physics world, this is does nothing. The institutional powers don't react at all to a complaining influencer with an Einstein doll. And I suspect she's perfectly fine with that. Overturning the Physics establishment is a near impossible task. I would leave that for those mad enough to try.
  - tejohnso 10mo ago
    Your paragraphs two, three and four are exactly what Sabine is communicating. So much so that it almost sounds like you pulled a transcript from one of her videos. I don't think you're describing "the" problem with Sabine. She's not what you want her to be but that's a you problem. You're describing your particular problem with Sabine. I appreciate that she's doing a lot to bring attention to the real issue despite your claim that she is supporting grim figures. I know about the problem because of her work, but I have no idea who Ben goldacre is. Also no idea what you mean by supporting grim figures. I checked to see if she has come out in support of Jeffrey Epstein or something crazy like that, but no.
athrowaway3z 10mo ago
I'm not a fan of Hossenfelder, especially for casting quacks like Weinstein, but AFAICT she isn't about "suppressing the real physics" but more of a "establishment physics is wasting money and time, and a lot is equally bad/good as some alternative physics."
- raverbashing 10mo ago
  Yeah I think most of what (negative) people attribute to her is mostly her being hopelessly German. Most, but not all
  - Levitating 10mo ago
    Don't agree, she spreads misinformation, she's disrespectful to other scientists and basically has resorted to just claiming that everything in academics is wrong. YouTube fame has completely radicalized her.
  - vjvjvjvjghv 10mo ago
    I am German and I don’t think so. She is just another influencer who is living in her little social media bubble.
- Levitating 10mo ago
  I think here more recent takes are not nearly as nuanced.
  - vjvjvjvjghv 10mo ago
    She proves my theory that people who are successful on social media will lose their minds over time. It’s too easy to fall into the contrarian or cheerleading trap because there is too much money and fame in it. Being nuanced is boring and doesn’t sell
- UncleMeat 10mo ago
  A year ago that might have been the case. Her more recent stuff is fairly dire. I believe that the algorithm encourages her and channels like hers to become more and more conspiratorial and less and less nuanced.
Levitating 10mo ago
Collier made a video fairly recently where she showed disappointment that her videos are watched by people who also watch Hossenfelder. https://youtu.be/miJbW3i9qQc https://youtu.be/miJbW3i9qQc
hn_throwaway_99 10mo ago
> Most of her criticism is with media coverage of string theory, not the research or the researchers. I pretty strongly disagree with that categorization of Collier's video, as it makes it sound like string theorists were innocent bystanders and "the big bad media" just ran overboard. I think she puts the blame squarely on string theorists (e.g. "celebrity string theorists who wrote all these books") as constantly hyping up the field with promises of "in a decade it will be amazing" - a phrase she uses to great dramatic effect throughout the video - despite never acknowledging the fact that it fails miserably at making testable predictions. When she says "they lied to us", the "they" she's clearly talking about are specific researchers in the field (which she names), and the string research community more broadly, who are hyping up their field, not just "the media".