5 ms·

Just because you don't see it written verbatim "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" doesn't mean it's not the argument being made. Right now you have half the co

by estearum 11mo ago

Just because you don't see it written verbatim "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" doesn't mean it's not the argument being made. Right now you have half the country downright giddy about federal agents terrorizing broad swaths of Americans, driving recklessly down their freeways, waving guns around their neighborhoods, bodyslamming random passersby, all fundamentally because half the country believes the only reason someone could not be giddy about this is because they "have something to hide."

billy99k 11mo ago
[flagged]
- amanaplanacanal 11mo ago
  > Ice agents are deporting people in the US that are here illegally. How would anybody know that if they aren't allowed hearings?
  - throwaway290 11mo ago
    I saw that comment before it was flagged and thanks to that I now have this argument that you supplied. if I arrived a couple minutes later I wouldn't know it. (I browsed logged out) I disagree with that guy but I don't know it should be flagged
    - mindslight 11mo ago
      The HN dead dynamic has been increasingly throwing babies out with the bathwater, and logging in (even to a throwaway account) with showdead=yes is the right call these days. But for this particular comment, I assume it was flagged because at this point continuing to cheerlead for the fascists/destructionists with nonsense talking points is just basic flamebait. As GP said, the assertion that only illegal immigrants are being harassed/abducted/disappeared is completely unfounded - the government is not operating with transparency to demonstrate this, nor accountability for the collateral harm that we do know they have caused.
      - throwaway290 11mo ago
        This is not basic flamebait. if you have any serious conversation outside of your political bubble this is THE argument that people who get deported are never US citizens. and it is a valid argument unless you can find examples of citizens deported. I can't there are so many shorts of right wing "influencers" cornering liberals who can't give a suitable reply to this question. so the argument about hearings is important. and killing this discussion took it away from public. this of course is very useful to the maga machine which is so friendly to big tech so I'm not surprised.
        mindslight 11mo ago
        > THE argument that people who get deported are never US citizens. and it is a valid argument unless you can find examples of citizens deported (I can't). It might be a valid argument in a dictatorship, but not in the US - rather it's hopeium that completely relies on preconceived assumptions. An assertion that everyone deported/disappeared must be a non-citizen (... because otherwise why would they have been deported?) is bog standard fallacy that the government/computer/bureaucracy] is always correct. The entire foundation of Constitutionally limited government responsible to the People is that it is the government's job to justify its actions. That's the goal of open legal process, professional representation, the incarcerated's communication with the outside world, etc. A strongman wannabe-dictator asserting "trust me" but hiding all of the details, and for what we do know about engaging in wanton criminality, is nowhere near any level of good-faith executing the laws of a Constitutionally-limited government. Personally I'd say people still thinking any of this is about "immigration reform" are being taken for a ride, just as they have been for the past thirty years.
        throwaway290 11mo ago
        Nope. It is a valid argument in US in the eyes of US citizens who make it. You don't get to just say "it's not a valid argument" and think that will convince people and actually you know it too. That's why you give the rest of the explanation. which will not be seen because the conversation was killed.
- estearum 11mo ago
  Can you state specifically what you think "isn't happening" so I can respond to it? > Ice agents are [only] deporting people in the US that are here illegally. Not only is this not true, but it's irrelevant to my point. I'm not talking about deportation. I'm talking about ICE's actions here in the streets of American cities. As for the rest of your comment: lol, lmao even
- sallveburrpi 11mo ago
  Regardless of the legality (which I can’t comment on being on the other side of the pond) - masked anonymous people snatching people from the street and disappearing them in unmarked vehicles sounds A LOT like what the nazi party did in my country. I know it’s a tired trope by this point but the parallels are definitely there. And you know how the saying goes: first they came for xyz, by the time they came for me nobody was left to speak out for me. US America was always a place for me to look up to, for free speech and a humane society that welcomes everyone — even if that was always an unreal ideal but at least it was something most US citizens took seriously; really sad to see it being dismantled so quickly in the years after 9/11 leading up to the situation now
  - Terr_ 11mo ago
    In terms of armoring the argument, I try to add a time component: "That's exactly what the Nazis in $YEAR." Granted, this won't work on people who don't know or care about history, but that was probably a lost cause anyway.
slaugh 11mo ago
The hardcore supporters of the current U.S. administration (e.g. those that go to the rallies, give to the NRA, participate in some militant group), had been very distrustful of government in-general, and I suspect they still are. You may feel that you’re supporting some radical left-wing group you think is cool that just wants people to let everyone be free to think and act how they want, but privacy / hiding communication goes both ways. You may also be supporting terrorists that would rather be spitting on you and bombing your family and friends than reading your manifesto on the right to watch freaky crap.
- estearum 11mo ago
  What?
- tdeck 11mo ago
  > had been very distrustful of government in-general, and I suspect they still are. They were never really distrustful of the government. People who really don't trust the government want to downsize the parts that can kick down your door and point a gun at you. These people have demonstrated time and again that they want more of that, because they actually trust that institutions of state violence will be on their side and uphold their interests. Instead what they oppose are parts of the government they suspect are helping people and groups they dislike. This is what the American right reliably can't stand, for all the flavor of the month posturing they might engage in to keep things from getting stale.
  - mindslight 11mo ago
    It comes out in some pretty glaring self-contradictory ways, too. Big talk about the second amendment - personal freedom, from my cold dead hands, etc. Then Kenneth Walker straightforwardly exercises his second amendment right to lawful night time home defense, the government jackboot assailants murder Breonna Taylor in retaliation, and the supposed "freedom lovers" then chime in with support for the jackboots while twisting themselves in knots to justify how the victims of state violence deserved it. As long as I can remember, the Republican party has been full of hypocrisy and ignorant denial. But this sheer ability of Dear Leader's to make people dance to his tune of outright harming themselves has taken it to another level (I guess there is a reason why he was (is) a really successful con artist). At this point anybody earnestly caring about personal liberty should consider the whole Republican party a sick joke. We need some real opposition ("Libertarian" party isn't well poised for that either), and some real voting systems that break a duopoly (eg Ranked Pairs). But first we really just need to take our country back from these fascists who have completely lost the plot of American ideals.

billy99k 11mo ago

[flagged]

amanaplanacanal 11mo ago
> Ice agents are deporting people in the US that are here illegally. How would anybody know that if they aren't allowed hearings?
- throwaway290 11mo ago
  I saw that comment before it was flagged and thanks to that I now have this argument that you supplied. if I arrived a couple minutes later I wouldn't know it. (I browsed logged out) I disagree with that guy but I don't know it should be flagged
  - mindslight 11mo ago
    The HN dead dynamic has been increasingly throwing babies out with the bathwater, and logging in (even to a throwaway account) with showdead=yes is the right call these days. But for this particular comment, I assume it was flagged because at this point continuing to cheerlead for the fascists/destructionists with nonsense talking points is just basic flamebait. As GP said, the assertion that only illegal immigrants are being harassed/abducted/disappeared is completely unfounded - the government is not operating with transparency to demonstrate this, nor accountability for the collateral harm that we do know they have caused.
    - throwaway290 11mo ago
      This is not basic flamebait. if you have any serious conversation outside of your political bubble this is THE argument that people who get deported are never US citizens. and it is a valid argument unless you can find examples of citizens deported. I can't there are so many shorts of right wing "influencers" cornering liberals who can't give a suitable reply to this question. so the argument about hearings is important. and killing this discussion took it away from public. this of course is very useful to the maga machine which is so friendly to big tech so I'm not surprised.
      - mindslight 11mo ago
        > THE argument that people who get deported are never US citizens. and it is a valid argument unless you can find examples of citizens deported (I can't). It might be a valid argument in a dictatorship, but not in the US - rather it's hopeium that completely relies on preconceived assumptions. An assertion that everyone deported/disappeared must be a non-citizen (... because otherwise why would they have been deported?) is bog standard fallacy that the government/computer/bureaucracy] is always correct. The entire foundation of Constitutionally limited government responsible to the People is that it is the government's job to justify its actions. That's the goal of open legal process, professional representation, the incarcerated's communication with the outside world, etc. A strongman wannabe-dictator asserting "trust me" but hiding all of the details, and for what we do know about engaging in wanton criminality, is nowhere near any level of good-faith executing the laws of a Constitutionally-limited government. Personally I'd say people still thinking any of this is about "immigration reform" are being taken for a ride, just as they have been for the past thirty years.
        throwaway290 11mo ago
        Nope. It is a valid argument in US in the eyes of US citizens who make it. You don't get to just say "it's not a valid argument" and think that will convince people and actually you know it too. That's why you give the rest of the explanation. which will not be seen because the conversation was killed.
estearum 11mo ago
Can you state specifically what you think "isn't happening" so I can respond to it? > Ice agents are [only] deporting people in the US that are here illegally. Not only is this not true, but it's irrelevant to my point. I'm not talking about deportation. I'm talking about ICE's actions here in the streets of American cities. As for the rest of your comment: lol, lmao even
sallveburrpi 11mo ago
Regardless of the legality (which I can’t comment on being on the other side of the pond) - masked anonymous people snatching people from the street and disappearing them in unmarked vehicles sounds A LOT like what the nazi party did in my country. I know it’s a tired trope by this point but the parallels are definitely there. And you know how the saying goes: first they came for xyz, by the time they came for me nobody was left to speak out for me. US America was always a place for me to look up to, for free speech and a humane society that welcomes everyone — even if that was always an unreal ideal but at least it was something most US citizens took seriously; really sad to see it being dismantled so quickly in the years after 9/11 leading up to the situation now
- Terr_ 11mo ago
  In terms of armoring the argument, I try to add a time component: "That's exactly what the Nazis in $YEAR." Granted, this won't work on people who don't know or care about history, but that was probably a lost cause anyway.

slaugh 11mo ago

The hardcore supporters of the current U.S. administration (e.g. those that go to the rallies, give to the NRA, participate in some militant group), had been very distrustful of government in-general, and I suspect they still are. You may feel that you’re supporting some radical left-wing group you think is cool that just wants people to let everyone be free to think and act how they want, but privacy / hiding communication goes both ways. You may also be supporting terrorists that would rather be spitting on you and bombing your family and friends than reading your manifesto on the right to watch freaky crap.

estearum 11mo ago
What?
tdeck 11mo ago
> had been very distrustful of government in-general, and I suspect they still are. They were never really distrustful of the government. People who really don't trust the government want to downsize the parts that can kick down your door and point a gun at you. These people have demonstrated time and again that they want more of that, because they actually trust that institutions of state violence will be on their side and uphold their interests. Instead what they oppose are parts of the government they suspect are helping people and groups they dislike. This is what the American right reliably can't stand, for all the flavor of the month posturing they might engage in to keep things from getting stale.
- mindslight 11mo ago
  It comes out in some pretty glaring self-contradictory ways, too. Big talk about the second amendment - personal freedom, from my cold dead hands, etc. Then Kenneth Walker straightforwardly exercises his second amendment right to lawful night time home defense, the government jackboot assailants murder Breonna Taylor in retaliation, and the supposed "freedom lovers" then chime in with support for the jackboots while twisting themselves in knots to justify how the victims of state violence deserved it. As long as I can remember, the Republican party has been full of hypocrisy and ignorant denial. But this sheer ability of Dear Leader's to make people dance to his tune of outright harming themselves has taken it to another level (I guess there is a reason why he was (is) a really successful con artist). At this point anybody earnestly caring about personal liberty should consider the whole Republican party a sick joke. We need some real opposition ("Libertarian" party isn't well poised for that either), and some real voting systems that break a duopoly (eg Ranked Pairs). But first we really just need to take our country back from these fascists who have completely lost the plot of American ideals.