4 ms·

While I think this "coming out" is an intelligent observation, I don't agree with your "first step", discovering what religion (not) has to offer to a person. W

by eiji 14y ago

While I think this "coming out" is an intelligent observation, I don't agree with your "first step", discovering what religion (not) has to offer to a person. With that comment I can't upvote the entire statement. To start with, it probably offers a sense of community. It can also help bridge gaps between different parts of our society. I appreciate the charity work. However, I'm part of the 20%, so I'm standing at the sidelines on this one.

tensor 14y ago
You can have all those things without religion.
- randallsquared 14y ago
  Then why don't we? Or, rather, can you name some groupings that provide the impulse toward community which aren't religious or quasi-religious (such as freemasonry)? The only two I can think of offhand are RPG gaming groups and the Lions Club.
  - lutusp 14y ago
    >> You can have all those things without religion. > Then why don't we? That's easy to answer -- religions hunt down and kill all members of communities other than their own. In "civilized" western societies, religions instead argue endlessly against any ideas or communities that differ from their own, eventually wearing down their opponents: "Republican Congressman says evolution is 'lie from hell'": http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/republican-congressman-says-evolution-is-lie-from-hell-8202896.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/republican-... Another reason, less important, is that the glue of religion is stronger than the glue of simple human companionship, to the degree that one simply cannot escape.
  - zwieback 14y ago
    I can think of many: gardening clubs, model railroad clubs, stamp collectors, bicycle racing clubs. I go to many music jams that consist of religious and non-religious musicians to about equal proportions.
  - tensor 14y ago
    There are lots of them, if you take a moment to look. I would suggest looking for a local Humanist group. e.g. http://www.stanford.edu/group/Humanists/ http://www.stanford.edu/group/Humanists/, http://www.americanhumanist.org/ http://www.americanhumanist.org/ I don't personally partake in these communities, but they exist for people who have a need for the non-religious aspects of religion.
lutusp 14y ago
> To start with, it probably offers a sense of community. With all respect, the religious aspect of a human community is a coincidence -- on can have a community without the religious context. I personally think it's an unfortunate accident of history that so many human communities are built on a scaffolding of religion. > It can also help bridge gaps between different parts of our society. It is here that you touch an important point, indeed a critical one. History shows us that, overall, religion creates gaps, it doesn't mend them. For each religious endeavor to reach across a chasm between people, there are ten religious endeavors to create the chasm in the first place.
- zwieback 14y ago
  First you say the religious aspect of communities is coincidental then you say that religion forms chasm-surrounded communities. Which is it?
  - lutusp 14y ago
    > First you say the religious aspect of communities is coincidental then you say that religion forms chasm-surrounded communities. Which is it? The dichotomy you think you see doesn't exist. They're both true. Let me spell it out for you: * The fact that many human communities are religious is a coincidence, an accident of history. * Those religions that do form, tend to isolate themselves from other communities, sometimes by trying to convert or kill everyone they meet. This doesn't prevent them from being a community, any more than a community of rattlesnakes is not a legitimate community solely on the ground that it's dangerous to surrounding communities. Clear now?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

by eiji 14y ago

tensor 14y ago

You can have all those things without religion.

randallsquared 14y ago
Then why don't we? Or, rather, can you name some groupings that provide the impulse toward community which aren't religious or quasi-religious (such as freemasonry)? The only two I can think of offhand are RPG gaming groups and the Lions Club.
- lutusp 14y ago
  >> You can have all those things without religion. > Then why don't we? That's easy to answer -- religions hunt down and kill all members of communities other than their own. In "civilized" western societies, religions instead argue endlessly against any ideas or communities that differ from their own, eventually wearing down their opponents: "Republican Congressman says evolution is 'lie from hell'": http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/republican-congressman-says-evolution-is-lie-from-hell-8202896.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/republican-... Another reason, less important, is that the glue of religion is stronger than the glue of simple human companionship, to the degree that one simply cannot escape.
- zwieback 14y ago
  I can think of many: gardening clubs, model railroad clubs, stamp collectors, bicycle racing clubs. I go to many music jams that consist of religious and non-religious musicians to about equal proportions.
- tensor 14y ago
  There are lots of them, if you take a moment to look. I would suggest looking for a local Humanist group. e.g. http://www.stanford.edu/group/Humanists/ http://www.stanford.edu/group/Humanists/, http://www.americanhumanist.org/ http://www.americanhumanist.org/ I don't personally partake in these communities, but they exist for people who have a need for the non-religious aspects of religion.

lutusp 14y ago

> To start with, it probably offers a sense of community. With all respect, the religious aspect of a human community is a coincidence -- on can have a community without the religious context. I personally think it's an unfortunate accident of history that so many human communities are built on a scaffolding of religion. > It can also help bridge gaps between different parts of our society. It is here that you touch an important point, indeed a critical one. History shows us that, overall, religion creates gaps, it doesn't mend them. For each religious endeavor to reach across a chasm between people, there are ten religious endeavors to create the chasm in the first place.

zwieback 14y ago
First you say the religious aspect of communities is coincidental then you say that religion forms chasm-surrounded communities. Which is it?
- lutusp 14y ago
  > First you say the religious aspect of communities is coincidental then you say that religion forms chasm-surrounded communities. Which is it? The dichotomy you think you see doesn't exist. They're both true. Let me spell it out for you: * The fact that many human communities are religious is a coincidence, an accident of history. * Those religions that do form, tend to isolate themselves from other communities, sometimes by trying to convert or kill everyone they meet. This doesn't prevent them from being a community, any more than a community of rattlesnakes is not a legitimate community solely on the ground that it's dangerous to surrounding communities. Clear now?
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]