5 ms·

It would be nice to have a new Council, an ecumenical one, coming to agreement to unite Catholic, Orthodox, and as many mainline protestant churches as possible

It would be nice to have a new Council, an ecumenical one, coming to agreement to unite Catholic, Orthodox, and as many mainline protestant churches as possible. It may require the Catholic church to make some sort of concession, which is probably the biggest obstacle. There is no question that not everyone could or would want to unite. But some progress would be nice. To take a historical example the Council of Chalcedon did result in a schism (Oriental Orthodox I think), yet even so, more Christians came out of that Council united than were united prior to it.

dvt 11mo ago
Extremely unlikely, as there are a lot of theological dealbreakers: the Catholic veneration of Mary & the saints, Protestant sola scriptura & sola fide, Catholic papal infallibility, among many others.
- CGMthrowaway 11mo ago
  "Dealbreakers" are the reason councils exist. I'm not saying it would be easy. Far from it. But the longer we wait to try, the harder it will be.
  - dragonwriter 11mo ago
    What do you mean, the longer we wait and try? Ecumenical councils have always been held between communities that already viewed themselves in full communion, though dissaatisfaction with the results sometimes meant a council was the end point of that belief. There are ongoing efforts to move back to full communion between the various churches via bi- and multi-lateral dialogue, its not something that people are waiting to try.
- shtzvhdx 11mo ago
  Venerate: 1 to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference 2 to honor (an icon, a relic) Merriam-Webster. What's the problem with venerating Mary? The Apostolic Church, East and Rome can over come their differences, there's little substantive difference.
  - gred 11mo ago
    Many Catholics believe that Mary was born without sin (immaculate conception), never died (assumption into heaven), can advocate to Jesus for believers (intercession) and has been crowned the Queen of Heaven. This goes well beyond "admiring" or "honoring". To complicate matters, many of these dogmas were only formalized by the Catholic church in the past 200 years. Quite a hard sell for the "sola scriptura" contingent.
    - dragonwriter 11mo ago
      > To complicate matters, many of these dogmas were only formalized by the Catholic church in the past 200 years. Quite a hard sell for the "sola scriptura" contingent. There are only four things on that list, and only two of them are dogmas (and there are a whole two more Marian dogmas that aren’t on your list), so I am not sure where the “many of these dogmas” comes from; also, the various Protestant positions on the role of scripture (prima scriptura, sola scriptura, and nuda scriptura, in ascending order of how far they differ from the Catholic [or, for that matter, Eastern Orthodox] position) were themselves formalized not much less recently.
      - gred 11mo ago
        It's a little ironic to label a call to "stop adding new things" as a "new thing" itself, no?
    - throw0101a 11mo ago
      > Many Catholics believe that Mary was born without sin (immaculate conception), never died (assumption into heaven), can advocate to Jesus for believers (intercession) and has been crowned the Queen of Heaven. So do the Orthodox churches. And both have roots going back way longer that 'just' two hundred years: > Mary as Queen of Heaven is praised in the Salve Regina ("Hail Queen"), which is sung in the time from Trinity Sunday until the Saturday before the first Sunday of Advent. It is attributed to a German Benedictine monk, Hermann of Reichenau (1013–1054). Traditionally it has been sung in Latin, though many translations exist. In the Middle Ages, Salve Regina offices were held every Saturday.[21] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Heaven#Salve_Regina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Heaven#Salve_Regina > "Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen, protect and keep me under your wing lest Satan the sower of destruction glory over me, lest my wicked foe be victorious against me." St. Ephrem the Syrian (4th Century) * http://theorthodoxfaith.com/article/mary-as-the-queen-of-heaven/ http://theorthodoxfaith.com/article/mary-as-the-queen-of-hea... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephrem_the_Syrian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephrem_the_Syrian And if we're going to with potentially troublesome dogmas, I would think the Real Presence would be much higher on the list: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_presence_of_Christ_in_the_Eucharist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_presence_of_Christ_in_the...
krapp 11mo ago
Why? Every religion in existence has multiple and often contradictory interpretations of doctrine and what is and isn't "canon." Why should Christianity be any different? At least Catholics recognize Protestants and Orthodox as fellow Christians and aren't burning them at the stake for heresy anymore. That's probably the best we can hope for.
- 7thaccount 11mo ago
  A lot of evangelical christians (like the predominant factions in the southern US) are very suspicious of Catholicism and many don't view it as true Christianity.
  - krapp 11mo ago
    Sure, I was raised by some. Bigots will be bigots though and I don't believe catering to bigots is ever a good idea.
    - 7thaccount 11mo ago
      Of course. My comment was just describing a very common view in the southern United States. Not all Protestants believe that (especially Anglicans which are basically Catholic without the Pope), but it's something I heard a lot growing up. I didn't say I agreed with it, but I think it's important to mention when some comments on here are suggesting a unification can happen. As someone extremely familiar with both groups, they may share most of the Bible in common as well as some core beliefs, but there other core beliefs that are hugely important and different between the groups that can never be reconciled. One important aspect is that Catholics (and I think Greek Orthodox) believe that the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Jesus Christ during mass.
undershirt 11mo ago
But consider how each sect defines unity and the criterion for uniting to others. In my mind, to simplify: Evangelicals: we must agree to a common *subset* of beliefs Catholics: we must agree to allow contradictory belief systems under the primacy of a single “politically” unifying belief Orthodox: we must agree to unite under one belief system
- CGMthrowaway 11mo ago
  The Catholics' willingness tolerating diverse beliefs under a single universal shepherd is key. A return to conciliarism (vs. a single pope), which was already the political system in the Catholic Church historically, at least for a time, could be one path to greater unity. Gets around Protestants' reticence to submit to the Pope and sidesteps the issue of papal infallibility.
BigTTYGothGF 11mo ago
Why would any of the organizations involved want to do this? Who benefits? The material conditions are also very different, there's basically no sectarian violence anymore.
- CGMthrowaway 11mo ago
  There is a lot less. I wouldn't say there is none. Not sure how old you are but many of us can remember the conflict in Northern Ireland. And today, one might look at the way the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has been treated in the Russia-Ukraine War.
  - BigTTYGothGF 11mo ago
    I don't think I'd call either of those sectarian violence. There's certainly a religious flavor to the Troubles, but I see it as primarily an anti-colonial struggle.
throw0101a 11mo ago
> It would be nice to have a new Council, an ecumenical one, coming to agreement to unite Catholic, Orthodox, and as many mainline protestant churches as possible. It may require the Catholic church to make some sort of concession, which is probably the biggest obstacle. It was the Protestantism that splintered from the Catholic Church (and then splintered with-in itself), and changed doctrine(s) to what had been accepted for over a thousand years. For example: the Real Presence. It's been accepted since the earliest times, and both Eastern (Orthodox) and Western (Catholic) Christianity profess it. Are Protestants going to accept it.

dvt 11mo ago

Extremely unlikely, as there are a lot of theological dealbreakers: the Catholic veneration of Mary & the saints, Protestant sola scriptura & sola fide, Catholic papal infallibility, among many others.

CGMthrowaway 11mo ago
"Dealbreakers" are the reason councils exist. I'm not saying it would be easy. Far from it. But the longer we wait to try, the harder it will be.
- dragonwriter 11mo ago
  What do you mean, the longer we wait and try? Ecumenical councils have always been held between communities that already viewed themselves in full communion, though dissaatisfaction with the results sometimes meant a council was the end point of that belief. There are ongoing efforts to move back to full communion between the various churches via bi- and multi-lateral dialogue, its not something that people are waiting to try.
shtzvhdx 11mo ago
Venerate: 1 to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference 2 to honor (an icon, a relic) Merriam-Webster. What's the problem with venerating Mary? The Apostolic Church, East and Rome can over come their differences, there's little substantive difference.
- gred 11mo ago
  Many Catholics believe that Mary was born without sin (immaculate conception), never died (assumption into heaven), can advocate to Jesus for believers (intercession) and has been crowned the Queen of Heaven. This goes well beyond "admiring" or "honoring". To complicate matters, many of these dogmas were only formalized by the Catholic church in the past 200 years. Quite a hard sell for the "sola scriptura" contingent.
  - dragonwriter 11mo ago
    > To complicate matters, many of these dogmas were only formalized by the Catholic church in the past 200 years. Quite a hard sell for the "sola scriptura" contingent. There are only four things on that list, and only two of them are dogmas (and there are a whole two more Marian dogmas that aren’t on your list), so I am not sure where the “many of these dogmas” comes from; also, the various Protestant positions on the role of scripture (prima scriptura, sola scriptura, and nuda scriptura, in ascending order of how far they differ from the Catholic [or, for that matter, Eastern Orthodox] position) were themselves formalized not much less recently.
    - gred 11mo ago
      It's a little ironic to label a call to "stop adding new things" as a "new thing" itself, no?
  - throw0101a 11mo ago
    > Many Catholics believe that Mary was born without sin (immaculate conception), never died (assumption into heaven), can advocate to Jesus for believers (intercession) and has been crowned the Queen of Heaven. So do the Orthodox churches. And both have roots going back way longer that 'just' two hundred years: > Mary as Queen of Heaven is praised in the Salve Regina ("Hail Queen"), which is sung in the time from Trinity Sunday until the Saturday before the first Sunday of Advent. It is attributed to a German Benedictine monk, Hermann of Reichenau (1013–1054). Traditionally it has been sung in Latin, though many translations exist. In the Middle Ages, Salve Regina offices were held every Saturday.[21] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Heaven#Salve_Regina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Heaven#Salve_Regina > "Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen, protect and keep me under your wing lest Satan the sower of destruction glory over me, lest my wicked foe be victorious against me." St. Ephrem the Syrian (4th Century) * http://theorthodoxfaith.com/article/mary-as-the-queen-of-heaven/ http://theorthodoxfaith.com/article/mary-as-the-queen-of-hea... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephrem_the_Syrian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephrem_the_Syrian And if we're going to with potentially troublesome dogmas, I would think the Real Presence would be much higher on the list: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_presence_of_Christ_in_the_Eucharist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_presence_of_Christ_in_the...

krapp 11mo ago

Why? Every religion in existence has multiple and often contradictory interpretations of doctrine and what is and isn't "canon." Why should Christianity be any different? At least Catholics recognize Protestants and Orthodox as fellow Christians and aren't burning them at the stake for heresy anymore. That's probably the best we can hope for.

7thaccount 11mo ago
A lot of evangelical christians (like the predominant factions in the southern US) are very suspicious of Catholicism and many don't view it as true Christianity.
- krapp 11mo ago
  Sure, I was raised by some. Bigots will be bigots though and I don't believe catering to bigots is ever a good idea.
  - 7thaccount 11mo ago
    Of course. My comment was just describing a very common view in the southern United States. Not all Protestants believe that (especially Anglicans which are basically Catholic without the Pope), but it's something I heard a lot growing up. I didn't say I agreed with it, but I think it's important to mention when some comments on here are suggesting a unification can happen. As someone extremely familiar with both groups, they may share most of the Bible in common as well as some core beliefs, but there other core beliefs that are hugely important and different between the groups that can never be reconciled. One important aspect is that Catholics (and I think Greek Orthodox) believe that the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Jesus Christ during mass.

undershirt 11mo ago

But consider how each sect defines unity and the criterion for uniting to others. In my mind, to simplify: Evangelicals: we must agree to a common *subset* of beliefs Catholics: we must agree to allow contradictory belief systems under the primacy of a single “politically” unifying belief Orthodox: we must agree to unite under one belief system

CGMthrowaway 11mo ago
The Catholics' willingness tolerating diverse beliefs under a single universal shepherd is key. A return to conciliarism (vs. a single pope), which was already the political system in the Catholic Church historically, at least for a time, could be one path to greater unity. Gets around Protestants' reticence to submit to the Pope and sidesteps the issue of papal infallibility.

BigTTYGothGF 11mo ago

Why would any of the organizations involved want to do this? Who benefits? The material conditions are also very different, there's basically no sectarian violence anymore.

CGMthrowaway 11mo ago
There is a lot less. I wouldn't say there is none. Not sure how old you are but many of us can remember the conflict in Northern Ireland. And today, one might look at the way the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has been treated in the Russia-Ukraine War.
- BigTTYGothGF 11mo ago
  I don't think I'd call either of those sectarian violence. There's certainly a religious flavor to the Troubles, but I see it as primarily an anti-colonial struggle.

throw0101a 11mo ago

> It would be nice to have a new Council, an ecumenical one, coming to agreement to unite Catholic, Orthodox, and as many mainline protestant churches as possible. It may require the Catholic church to make some sort of concession, which is probably the biggest obstacle. It was the Protestantism that splintered from the Catholic Church (and then splintered with-in itself), and changed doctrine(s) to what had been accepted for over a thousand years. For example: the Real Presence. It's been accepted since the earliest times, and both Eastern (Orthodox) and Western (Catholic) Christianity profess it. Are Protestants going to accept it.