3 ms·

As long as the firmware is proprietary and cannot be inspected or modified, the only reliable way to avoid snooping by tech industry is not to connect any "smar

by drnick1 11mo ago

As long as the firmware is proprietary and cannot be inspected or modified, the only reliable way to avoid snooping by tech industry is not to connect any "smart" device to the Internet. Use the TV as a dumb monitor for a PC under your control (running Linux). If streaming service X will not run on Linux because DRM is not implemented or enforceable on a free device, do without it, or find alternative sources for the content (hint: Linux ISOs).

jvanderbot 11mo ago
You say "only", but if it is illegal, optional, and can be detected freely, it is very likely to not happen. For all the snark one can muster about DOJ, with those three things in place, it could get expensive very quickly to try to circumvent the law.
peterhadlaw 11mo ago
What about cheap cellular modems built in?
- drnick1 11mo ago
  Is there any evidence those exist in TVs and other home appliances? Modern cars have cellular modems, I unplugged mine, and would not hesitate to take apart a TV and physically rip off the modem.
  - bluGill 11mo ago
    Maybe not yet - but 5g was built with the idea of making them cheap. It takes a couple years to design the cheap modems and then a few more years to get them in TVs, so they could well be coming in the near future yet - only time will tell. And the modem will also be your wifi so you can't really rip it off without losing other useful things.
    - gruez 11mo ago
      >but 5g was built with the idea of making them cheap For bandwidth, maybe. It's still going to add cost to the BOM. They'll have to recoup that somehow. Say a 5G modem costs $20 (random number). For it to actually make money, it'll need to be otherwise not connected to the internet, otherwise it can just use wifi instead. Out of 100 people, how many do you think won't connect it to the internet for privacy reasons? 1? 5? 10? Keep in mind, if they don't connect to the internet, they'll need to go out and get another device to watch netflix or whatever, so they're highly incentivized to. Say 10 out of 100 don't, and with this sneaky backdoor you now can sell ads to them. For that privilege, you paid $200 per disconnected TV, because for every disconnected TV with a 5G module, you need to have a 5G module in 9 other TVs that were already connected to the internet. How could you ever hope to recoup that expense?
      - bluGill 11mo ago
        assume they are aiming for $1 in large quantites. I don't know thier number but that is closer. And the cost will be low because they are bulk buying excess data. They can send this at 3am when everyone is asleep so cell companies can give a deep discount. again the above is the plan, reality often changes.
        gruez 11mo ago
        The above pricing is just for the modem itself, not the data plan. There's no way you can get a cellular modem for $1.
        bluGill 11mo ago
        Adafruit sells ESP32 for less than $3. Any manufacturer can get quantity pricing to lower the cost. ESP32 doesn't have cell (AFAIK), but it wouldn't be technically that hard to add if they wanted. While $1 might be a bit on the low side, it is reasonable.
    - sfRattan 11mo ago
      If you're planning on using the TV as a dumb display for another device, and are determined enough to physically remove a cellular modem, then the TV's own WiFi is not a useful thing either, even if integrated into the same chip.
  - anon7000 11mo ago
    Absolutely yes. My prescribed CPAP came with 5G that uploads data for their app and for your physician to monitor your progress. You basically wouldn’t even know it had one, the plan must be managed by the company and automatically connects where ever you take it. https://www.resmed.com/en-us/products/cpap/machines/airsense-11/ https://www.resmed.com/en-us/products/cpap/machines/airsense...
- tehlike 11mo ago
  Eventually these will use mesh networks to figure this out.
irl_zebra 11mo ago
I've been using my pi-hole as my DNS and then also firewall blocking the TV from phoning out on port 53 in case the manufacturer has hardcoded DNS. Though I agree with the point and I shouldn't have to do this. This is just mitigation.
- gruez 11mo ago
  >and then also firewall blocking the TV from phoning out on port 53 in case the manufacturer has hardcoded DNS I'm surprised they haven't switched to using DoH, which would prevent this from working.
  - hunter2_ 11mo ago
    It wouldn't even need to use any sort of standards-based DNS-like thing at all, if they control the server (on a stable IP address in the TV's firmware) and the client (the TV). It could be any data scheme (probably https for simplicity and blending in) along the lines of "give me all the other IP addresses I'll need, which aren't as stable as the one in my firmware." Regardless, what is the benefit of putting the TV on the network but preventing it from doing DNS lookups anyway, even if you could be sure you succeed?
- username135 11mo ago
  At the very least, i would assume the majority of folks here were pi-holing devices on their network.

by drnick1 11mo ago

jvanderbot 11mo ago

You say "only", but if it is illegal, optional, and can be detected freely, it is very likely to not happen. For all the snark one can muster about DOJ, with those three things in place, it could get expensive very quickly to try to circumvent the law.

peterhadlaw 11mo ago

What about cheap cellular modems built in?

drnick1 11mo ago
Is there any evidence those exist in TVs and other home appliances? Modern cars have cellular modems, I unplugged mine, and would not hesitate to take apart a TV and physically rip off the modem.
- bluGill 11mo ago
  Maybe not yet - but 5g was built with the idea of making them cheap. It takes a couple years to design the cheap modems and then a few more years to get them in TVs, so they could well be coming in the near future yet - only time will tell. And the modem will also be your wifi so you can't really rip it off without losing other useful things.
  - gruez 11mo ago
    >but 5g was built with the idea of making them cheap For bandwidth, maybe. It's still going to add cost to the BOM. They'll have to recoup that somehow. Say a 5G modem costs $20 (random number). For it to actually make money, it'll need to be otherwise not connected to the internet, otherwise it can just use wifi instead. Out of 100 people, how many do you think won't connect it to the internet for privacy reasons? 1? 5? 10? Keep in mind, if they don't connect to the internet, they'll need to go out and get another device to watch netflix or whatever, so they're highly incentivized to. Say 10 out of 100 don't, and with this sneaky backdoor you now can sell ads to them. For that privilege, you paid $200 per disconnected TV, because for every disconnected TV with a 5G module, you need to have a 5G module in 9 other TVs that were already connected to the internet. How could you ever hope to recoup that expense?
    - bluGill 11mo ago
      assume they are aiming for $1 in large quantites. I don't know thier number but that is closer. And the cost will be low because they are bulk buying excess data. They can send this at 3am when everyone is asleep so cell companies can give a deep discount. again the above is the plan, reality often changes.
      - gruez 11mo ago
        The above pricing is just for the modem itself, not the data plan. There's no way you can get a cellular modem for $1.
        bluGill 11mo ago
        Adafruit sells ESP32 for less than $3. Any manufacturer can get quantity pricing to lower the cost. ESP32 doesn't have cell (AFAIK), but it wouldn't be technically that hard to add if they wanted. While $1 might be a bit on the low side, it is reasonable.
  - sfRattan 11mo ago
    If you're planning on using the TV as a dumb display for another device, and are determined enough to physically remove a cellular modem, then the TV's own WiFi is not a useful thing either, even if integrated into the same chip.
- anon7000 11mo ago
  Absolutely yes. My prescribed CPAP came with 5G that uploads data for their app and for your physician to monitor your progress. You basically wouldn’t even know it had one, the plan must be managed by the company and automatically connects where ever you take it. https://www.resmed.com/en-us/products/cpap/machines/airsense-11/ https://www.resmed.com/en-us/products/cpap/machines/airsense...
tehlike 11mo ago
Eventually these will use mesh networks to figure this out.

irl_zebra 11mo ago

I've been using my pi-hole as my DNS and then also firewall blocking the TV from phoning out on port 53 in case the manufacturer has hardcoded DNS. Though I agree with the point and I shouldn't have to do this. This is just mitigation.

gruez 11mo ago
>and then also firewall blocking the TV from phoning out on port 53 in case the manufacturer has hardcoded DNS I'm surprised they haven't switched to using DoH, which would prevent this from working.
- hunter2_ 11mo ago
  It wouldn't even need to use any sort of standards-based DNS-like thing at all, if they control the server (on a stable IP address in the TV's firmware) and the client (the TV). It could be any data scheme (probably https for simplicity and blending in) along the lines of "give me all the other IP addresses I'll need, which aren't as stable as the one in my firmware." Regardless, what is the benefit of putting the TV on the network but preventing it from doing DNS lookups anyway, even if you could be sure you succeed?
username135 11mo ago
At the very least, i would assume the majority of folks here were pi-holing devices on their network.