3 ms·

I wonder how the proponents of banning books like this don't have an "Are we the baddies?" moment. What precedent is there for history to look kindly on this t

by slg 10mo ago

I wonder how the proponents of banning books like this don't have an "Are we the baddies?" moment. What precedent is there for history to look kindly on this type of behavior? Is there a single fiction book that you can point to that was banned in that past that let's say 60% of people today would agree was necessary (i.e. it would be in schools if there wasn't a ban) and appropriate to ban? It always seems like within a generation or two, most people agree the prior efforts to ban books were wrong, then a little time elapses, and we start banning new books again.

School-Cotton 10mo ago
There are no "banned books" in the US. Using that term is inaccurate, and IMO a bit of an insult to people living in countries that actually do ban books. What there actually are, are books that schools refuse to carry in their libraries because they don't think the content is appropriate for children. I would assume this happens in every country.
- slg 10mo ago
  >books that schools refuse to carry in their libraries You are just fundamentally wrong on the facts here. This list is specifically books that were removed from libraries due to outside forces. I'm not worried about school librarians deciding that a book's content makes it unsuitable for their students. These are situations in which parents or government officials are telling the school to remove a book already present. https://pen.org/book-bans/book-bans-frequently-asked-questions/ https://pen.org/book-bans/book-bans-frequently-asked-questio...
nickff 10mo ago
I am not a proponent of any of these bans, but it seems like someone needs to decide which books are featured at schools, and these 'bans' are just vetoes of certain books enacted by parents or school boards. I am not sure why a librarian or some school administrator should have complete authority to select any books they may prefer. This seems similar to a curriculum, in that the citizens and/or school board direct the educators what they should be (and should not be) teaching.
- cycomanic 10mo ago
  Well I certainly don't want school boards to determine the curriculum.
- IAmBroom 10mo ago
  > I am not sure why a librarian or some school administrator should have complete authority to select any books they may prefer. Because it's their explicit job function. Librarians aren't hired to watch over unchanging collections of books like cryptkeepers. They have budgets to buy books with.
- NoGravitas 10mo ago
  > I am not a proponent of any of these bans, but it seems like someone needs to decide which books are featured at schools Yes. This is normally done by a school librarian, who has extensive training in curating collections, and who is hired by the school board.
eterm 10mo ago
See the others here not only justifying the censorship, but downplaying that they're even censored. "Oh they're just not stocked? It's not a ban.", etc. How are children supposed to develop into adults, if they are denied reading about the experiences of others?
chasd00 10mo ago
school boards are elected, county and state governments are elected, if you want a policy changed at a school then change it. This is like saying a policy requiring a school uniform bans wearing flip-flops. Here's the top 10 list of banned shoes... Call me when you're arrested or fined for buying/selling any book in US.
- slg 10mo ago
  It's interesting that people are responding like this rather than answering my question. I know how democracy works and that includes the occasional instances of tyranny of the majority. That still doesn't address my original question. Is there historic precedent for this type of micromanaging of school libraries (if you're adamant that we shouldn't use the B word) that most of us would still agree with today? Because many of the books on the list seem more likely to follow the path of eventual school classics like The Grapes of Wrath or To Kill a Mockingbird than they are to continue to be banned decades into the future.
- spicymaki 10mo ago
  Freedom of speech (in the US) protects book publishing too, or do you think school boards are elected, county and state governments are above the constitution?
  - Levitz 10mo ago
    How does not stocking a book in a school library due to community complaints or even a state law conflict with the first amendment?
    - spicymaki 10mo ago
      Curation is not the issue. The librarians already selected and purchased the books, the state is forcing the librarians to remove them for political reasons. The state could hire qualified activist librarians who only want politically conservative "approved" books who curate only those books, but I will let you guess why they can't find qualified conservative librarians.
UncleMeat 10mo ago
The people screaming at school board meetings about gay characters in books aren't going to have an "are we the baddies" moment. They'd just ban gay people from existing in public entirely if they could.

by slg 10mo ago

School-Cotton 10mo ago

There are no "banned books" in the US. Using that term is inaccurate, and IMO a bit of an insult to people living in countries that actually do ban books. What there actually are, are books that schools refuse to carry in their libraries because they don't think the content is appropriate for children. I would assume this happens in every country.

slg 10mo ago
>books that schools refuse to carry in their libraries You are just fundamentally wrong on the facts here. This list is specifically books that were removed from libraries due to outside forces. I'm not worried about school librarians deciding that a book's content makes it unsuitable for their students. These are situations in which parents or government officials are telling the school to remove a book already present. https://pen.org/book-bans/book-bans-frequently-asked-questions/ https://pen.org/book-bans/book-bans-frequently-asked-questio...

nickff 10mo ago

I am not a proponent of any of these bans, but it seems like someone needs to decide which books are featured at schools, and these 'bans' are just vetoes of certain books enacted by parents or school boards. I am not sure why a librarian or some school administrator should have complete authority to select any books they may prefer. This seems similar to a curriculum, in that the citizens and/or school board direct the educators what they should be (and should not be) teaching.

cycomanic 10mo ago
Well I certainly don't want school boards to determine the curriculum.
IAmBroom 10mo ago
> I am not sure why a librarian or some school administrator should have complete authority to select any books they may prefer. Because it's their explicit job function. Librarians aren't hired to watch over unchanging collections of books like cryptkeepers. They have budgets to buy books with.
NoGravitas 10mo ago
> I am not a proponent of any of these bans, but it seems like someone needs to decide which books are featured at schools Yes. This is normally done by a school librarian, who has extensive training in curating collections, and who is hired by the school board.

eterm 10mo ago

See the others here not only justifying the censorship, but downplaying that they're even censored. "Oh they're just not stocked? It's not a ban.", etc. How are children supposed to develop into adults, if they are denied reading about the experiences of others?

chasd00 10mo ago

school boards are elected, county and state governments are elected, if you want a policy changed at a school then change it. This is like saying a policy requiring a school uniform bans wearing flip-flops. Here's the top 10 list of banned shoes... Call me when you're arrested or fined for buying/selling any book in US.

slg 10mo ago
It's interesting that people are responding like this rather than answering my question. I know how democracy works and that includes the occasional instances of tyranny of the majority. That still doesn't address my original question. Is there historic precedent for this type of micromanaging of school libraries (if you're adamant that we shouldn't use the B word) that most of us would still agree with today? Because many of the books on the list seem more likely to follow the path of eventual school classics like The Grapes of Wrath or To Kill a Mockingbird than they are to continue to be banned decades into the future.
spicymaki 10mo ago
Freedom of speech (in the US) protects book publishing too, or do you think school boards are elected, county and state governments are above the constitution?
- Levitz 10mo ago
  How does not stocking a book in a school library due to community complaints or even a state law conflict with the first amendment?
  - spicymaki 10mo ago
    Curation is not the issue. The librarians already selected and purchased the books, the state is forcing the librarians to remove them for political reasons. The state could hire qualified activist librarians who only want politically conservative "approved" books who curate only those books, but I will let you guess why they can't find qualified conservative librarians.

UncleMeat 10mo ago

The people screaming at school board meetings about gay characters in books aren't going to have an "are we the baddies" moment. They'd just ban gay people from existing in public entirely if they could.