6 ms·

Today I found out that USA (arguably the most libertarian country on earth, as far as business is concerned) has strict laws governing the sale of vehicles, sai

by jwr 14y ago

Today I found out that USA (arguably the most libertarian country on earth, as far as business is concerned) has strict laws governing the sale of vehicles, said laws actually preventing companies from selling vehicles. I find that quite amazing.

artursapek 14y ago
If there's any industry begging to be "disrupted," it's the automotive industry.
- ImprovedSilence 14y ago
  True, and Tesla has been the biggest disruptor. But barriers to entry are huge, and regulation really clamps down on "disruption". You know all those awesome concept cars you see at car shows that never get built? One reason nothing revolutionary comes out is that the industry is regulated to the max. Much of it is "safety" features, which may be well and good, but much of those "safety" constraints are arbitrary. But there are laws about everything from the shape of the steering wheel, to how far apart headlights need to be, and the CAFE standards pushing for fuel economy limits how cars have to be designed and built, as the companies need to squeak out every last mpg on the car.
  - artursapek 14y ago
    Let's hope the government sees Tesla as the exception it is and lets them do their thing.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
jetti 14y ago
Not to mention that there are some states that just prohibit the sales of vehicles on Sunday. That is what I find amazing. I can't imagine being told that one day a week I'm not allowed to sell my product.
- techdmn 14y ago
  It does seem a little odd, but as a resident of one of those states I think it's awesome. I can peruse the lot with zero chance of being approached by a salesperson. IMHO it actually facilitates car sales, because one day a week people can look at new cars without immediately feeling like prey.
  - jetti 14y ago
    You can do that online any time. What you see in the lot on Sunday is the same as what you would see online. But as a resident of one of those states as well, I hate it. Not because I want to buy a car on Sunday but because if the dealership is open the service section of the dealership would also be open.
    - gfosco 14y ago
      There's a huge difference between looking at pictures online and seeing the cars in person.
    - moheeb 14y ago
      No, what you see online is a digital representation of a physical product. What you see on the lot is an actual physical product that can be touched and smelled.
      - mcguire 14y ago
        ...and sat in. Or not, in my 6'5" case.
        jetti 14y ago
        Not when the dealership is closed though...that's the point of just looking online when they are closed on Sunday.
        mcguire 14y ago
talmand 14y ago
We have strict laws governing the sales and services of all kinds of things. Some of them are good, some are bad. The strictness and enforcement of these laws can also range from state-to-state. The problem with some of these laws are that often they were written with the idea of protecting a business concern to maintain their advantage over, and to the detriment of, the consumer.
w1ntermute 14y ago
> arguably the most libertarian country on earth, as far as business is concerned Ahahaha, I hope you're joking. The US isn't even close to being libertarian. The American economic system isn't based on capitalism, it's based on corporatism and regulatory capture.
- icebraining 14y ago
  Yes, but aren't other countries even less libertarian?
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    According to two major economic freedom indices[0][1], the US is ranked 18th and 10th, respectively, worldwide. So no, I wouldn't say that the US is the "most libertarian country in the world". 0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom
    - noarchy 14y ago
      Canadian here. My country is listed higher than the US in both lists, but I have to laugh out loud at that. Canada is swimming in protectionist laws that choke off competition in some vital sectors, like telecom. Even Amazon got crap for wanting to open warehouses here, because it was considered too "threatening" (as in, people might shop there) to the protected, Canadian companies. Canadians routinely cross the border to shop in US towns that are close to the border, because we don't get gouged as much there, and the choices are far better than we get here.
      - mahyarm 14y ago
        Candadian who moved america: America just has it's own special brand of protectionist crap. Americans often buy their medication from Canada due to all the crony capitalism that the USA has encountered with their health care system. Don't get started on the whole corn subsidy SNAFU. Also the USA has cheaper shopping compared to most of the world. Few places are cheaper, especially for goods that are not food, clothing or similar. Canada is primarily a resource economy. Minerals, oil & banks take up a majority of of the TSX's value. Symptoms of Dutch Disease are prevalent inside canada itself.
travisp 14y ago
Under most rankings of economic freedom, the United States barely manages to be in the top 10. The Heritage Foundation places Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Canada, Chile, Mauritius, and Ireland all above the United States on their Index of Economic Freedom. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom
- ImprovedSilence 14y ago
  Doesn't Australia have hideously terrible internet regulations? I guess that wouldn't fall under economic freedom...
  - travisp 14y ago
    A lot of nations have hideously terrible regulations in some area, and comparing such regulations in an index like this is of course subjective to some extent. It's also not a measure of all freedoms (otherwise, Singapore wouldn't be so high). It's intentionally only looking at economic freedom, which is relevant to the comment I was replying to (and as far as I can tell, the index is not trying to imply that these are the only freedoms that matter).
  - tjmc 14y ago
    If you're referring to mandatory filtering no - it never happened. Despite the communications minister announcing it. A large ISP also won a major test case against big media about having to report file sharers. Turns out they dont have to. So right now it's not so bad but I'm waiting for the nanny state to fight back.
- damoncali 14y ago
  Singapore? You are free in Singapore to the degree that their benevolent dictatorship wishes you to be.
  - beagle3 14y ago
    That's basically true everywhere. Except that in Singapore, it is explicit. Are you free to fill your gas tank in New Jersey (hint: no). Are you free as an american taxpayer to bank outside the US? (hint: no). Are you free to sell cars in the US? (hint: no) Are you free to get medical diagnostics of your choice in New York state (paying the market price, of course)? (hint: no) Are you free to live in California, yet own a liquor store in New York? (hint: no) There are numerous other examples. The common thread in these examples is that some lobby managed to secure a legislation that guarantees their benefit at your expense. You have about as much power to change that as a Singaporian does to change things in their country. Really, if you believe that the US is more free than the rest of the western world, you're probably unaware of the local law (and probably of the laws elsewhere)
ImprovedSilence 14y ago
I know right? I have a couple college friends working for GM. They get some awesome employee discount, and can flip it and buy a new car every 6mo or year or so. But they still have to go through dealers to buy their car. It's crazy. They can see their car in the GM lot, as it's being built, but they have to wait until it's shipped to a dealer, pay through a dealer, pick out their options through a dealer and submit a build sheet through a dealer, and still wade though dealers trying to up sell them on crap sitting on the dealer lots, just to "buy" their car.
- rprasad 14y ago
  Part of the GM dealer franchise agreement prohibits GM from competing against its dealer franchises, i.e., by selling directly to customers straight from the factory. It's not a law, it's simply a contractual provision that the dealers negotiated to protect their investments.
revelation 14y ago
That is a common experience for me (Germany here). There is no guaranteed vacation (full on neoliberalism), few barriers to firing people (dito), but theres also minimum wage, something that is completely foreign to most right and middle-leaning parties here. So the evidence seems to suggest that the whole libertarian and socialism debate is nothing but political banter, with little ideological foundation.
- driverdan 14y ago
  The free market works for jobs too when you let it. If company A offers a job with no vacation and company B offers 4 weeks a year the employee will choose company B. If neither offers vacation you can choose to find another company / industry or start your own. Job protection laws protect and promote mediocrity.
  - beagle3 14y ago
    It does in an employee market. If it's an employer market (which it is during economic downturns), then company A will offer your a job with no vacation, and company B will offer you a job with no vacation AND no overtime payment. And there are no other companies, and most people can't start their own. A free market is an inherently unstable equilibrium. If you don't put protection in place to make it stable, it will quickly stop being free. Of course, if you put too much protection, you get other unwanted effects, like promoting mediocrity. Extremes, either way, are bad.

by jwr 14y ago

artursapek 14y ago

If there's any industry begging to be "disrupted," it's the automotive industry.

ImprovedSilence 14y ago
True, and Tesla has been the biggest disruptor. But barriers to entry are huge, and regulation really clamps down on "disruption". You know all those awesome concept cars you see at car shows that never get built? One reason nothing revolutionary comes out is that the industry is regulated to the max. Much of it is "safety" features, which may be well and good, but much of those "safety" constraints are arbitrary. But there are laws about everything from the shape of the steering wheel, to how far apart headlights need to be, and the CAFE standards pushing for fuel economy limits how cars have to be designed and built, as the companies need to squeak out every last mpg on the car.
- artursapek 14y ago
  Let's hope the government sees Tesla as the exception it is and lets them do their thing.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

jetti 14y ago

Not to mention that there are some states that just prohibit the sales of vehicles on Sunday. That is what I find amazing. I can't imagine being told that one day a week I'm not allowed to sell my product.

techdmn 14y ago
It does seem a little odd, but as a resident of one of those states I think it's awesome. I can peruse the lot with zero chance of being approached by a salesperson. IMHO it actually facilitates car sales, because one day a week people can look at new cars without immediately feeling like prey.
- jetti 14y ago
  You can do that online any time. What you see in the lot on Sunday is the same as what you would see online. But as a resident of one of those states as well, I hate it. Not because I want to buy a car on Sunday but because if the dealership is open the service section of the dealership would also be open.
  - gfosco 14y ago
    There's a huge difference between looking at pictures online and seeing the cars in person.
  - moheeb 14y ago
    No, what you see online is a digital representation of a physical product. What you see on the lot is an actual physical product that can be touched and smelled.
    - mcguire 14y ago
      ...and sat in. Or not, in my 6'5" case.
      - jetti 14y ago
        Not when the dealership is closed though...that's the point of just looking online when they are closed on Sunday.
        mcguire 14y ago

talmand 14y ago

We have strict laws governing the sales and services of all kinds of things. Some of them are good, some are bad. The strictness and enforcement of these laws can also range from state-to-state. The problem with some of these laws are that often they were written with the idea of protecting a business concern to maintain their advantage over, and to the detriment of, the consumer.

w1ntermute 14y ago

> arguably the most libertarian country on earth, as far as business is concerned Ahahaha, I hope you're joking. The US isn't even close to being libertarian. The American economic system isn't based on capitalism, it's based on corporatism and regulatory capture.

icebraining 14y ago
Yes, but aren't other countries even less libertarian?
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  According to two major economic freedom indices[0][1], the US is ranked 18th and 10th, respectively, worldwide. So no, I wouldn't say that the US is the "most libertarian country in the world". 0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom
  - noarchy 14y ago
    Canadian here. My country is listed higher than the US in both lists, but I have to laugh out loud at that. Canada is swimming in protectionist laws that choke off competition in some vital sectors, like telecom. Even Amazon got crap for wanting to open warehouses here, because it was considered too "threatening" (as in, people might shop there) to the protected, Canadian companies. Canadians routinely cross the border to shop in US towns that are close to the border, because we don't get gouged as much there, and the choices are far better than we get here.
    - mahyarm 14y ago
      Candadian who moved america: America just has it's own special brand of protectionist crap. Americans often buy their medication from Canada due to all the crony capitalism that the USA has encountered with their health care system. Don't get started on the whole corn subsidy SNAFU. Also the USA has cheaper shopping compared to most of the world. Few places are cheaper, especially for goods that are not food, clothing or similar. Canada is primarily a resource economy. Minerals, oil & banks take up a majority of of the TSX's value. Symptoms of Dutch Disease are prevalent inside canada itself.

travisp 14y ago

Under most rankings of economic freedom, the United States barely manages to be in the top 10. The Heritage Foundation places Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Canada, Chile, Mauritius, and Ireland all above the United States on their Index of Economic Freedom. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

ImprovedSilence 14y ago
Doesn't Australia have hideously terrible internet regulations? I guess that wouldn't fall under economic freedom...
- travisp 14y ago
  A lot of nations have hideously terrible regulations in some area, and comparing such regulations in an index like this is of course subjective to some extent. It's also not a measure of all freedoms (otherwise, Singapore wouldn't be so high). It's intentionally only looking at economic freedom, which is relevant to the comment I was replying to (and as far as I can tell, the index is not trying to imply that these are the only freedoms that matter).
- tjmc 14y ago
  If you're referring to mandatory filtering no - it never happened. Despite the communications minister announcing it. A large ISP also won a major test case against big media about having to report file sharers. Turns out they dont have to. So right now it's not so bad but I'm waiting for the nanny state to fight back.
damoncali 14y ago
Singapore? You are free in Singapore to the degree that their benevolent dictatorship wishes you to be.
- beagle3 14y ago
  That's basically true everywhere. Except that in Singapore, it is explicit. Are you free to fill your gas tank in New Jersey (hint: no). Are you free as an american taxpayer to bank outside the US? (hint: no). Are you free to sell cars in the US? (hint: no) Are you free to get medical diagnostics of your choice in New York state (paying the market price, of course)? (hint: no) Are you free to live in California, yet own a liquor store in New York? (hint: no) There are numerous other examples. The common thread in these examples is that some lobby managed to secure a legislation that guarantees their benefit at your expense. You have about as much power to change that as a Singaporian does to change things in their country. Really, if you believe that the US is more free than the rest of the western world, you're probably unaware of the local law (and probably of the laws elsewhere)

ImprovedSilence 14y ago

I know right? I have a couple college friends working for GM. They get some awesome employee discount, and can flip it and buy a new car every 6mo or year or so. But they still have to go through dealers to buy their car. It's crazy. They can see their car in the GM lot, as it's being built, but they have to wait until it's shipped to a dealer, pay through a dealer, pick out their options through a dealer and submit a build sheet through a dealer, and still wade though dealers trying to up sell them on crap sitting on the dealer lots, just to "buy" their car.

rprasad 14y ago
Part of the GM dealer franchise agreement prohibits GM from competing against its dealer franchises, i.e., by selling directly to customers straight from the factory. It's not a law, it's simply a contractual provision that the dealers negotiated to protect their investments.

revelation 14y ago

That is a common experience for me (Germany here). There is no guaranteed vacation (full on neoliberalism), few barriers to firing people (dito), but theres also minimum wage, something that is completely foreign to most right and middle-leaning parties here. So the evidence seems to suggest that the whole libertarian and socialism debate is nothing but political banter, with little ideological foundation.

driverdan 14y ago
The free market works for jobs too when you let it. If company A offers a job with no vacation and company B offers 4 weeks a year the employee will choose company B. If neither offers vacation you can choose to find another company / industry or start your own. Job protection laws protect and promote mediocrity.
- beagle3 14y ago
  It does in an employee market. If it's an employer market (which it is during economic downturns), then company A will offer your a job with no vacation, and company B will offer you a job with no vacation AND no overtime payment. And there are no other companies, and most people can't start their own. A free market is an inherently unstable equilibrium. If you don't put protection in place to make it stable, it will quickly stop being free. Of course, if you put too much protection, you get other unwanted effects, like promoting mediocrity. Extremes, either way, are bad.