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> The real problem is that companies do not offer any accessible, powerful, and intelligent customer support. No, the real problem is that we have no reasonabl

by sneak 11mo ago

> The real problem is that companies do not offer any accessible, powerful, and intelligent customer support. No, the real problem is that we have no reasonable alternatives when companies misbehave. There is no meaningful way to exist in society today without an Apple or Google account, and that's actually insane. It's doubly insane for people who aren't citizens of the United States (although the CCP addressed this by requiring Apple make a separate iCloud for them). The solution isn't to legislate a right to a bank account, it's to preserve the usefulness of cash so banks don't get too far out of line.

Apreche 11mo ago
Even if there were viable alternatives, I believe people who chose to use an Apple, Google, or any other account should still have the rights I proposed.
- alpinisme 11mo ago
  As one data point, I would.
raverbashing 11mo ago
This is the naive tech bro view You can't keep chasing alternatives when companies misbehave That's why there's a thick list of contract law precedents and consumer's rights and what not
criddell 11mo ago
Cash being more useful wouldn't help you regain access to your photos, music, email, etc... when your account has been deactivated..
lxgr 11mo ago
> There is no meaningful way to exist in society today without an Apple or Google account As is the case for many other infrastructure companies, such as your local electricity network operator (or even supplier depending on market liberalization). We also didn't solve that problem by ensuring everyone's right to run a generator in their backyard or heat their city apartment with a coal oven. If tech companies have become essential to our day to day lives and are not willing to allow for horizontal interoperability, i.e. to split over-the-top services from infrastructure and individual elements of infrastructure from each other – because walled garden lock-in undoubtedly increases profits – why not regulate them as infrastructure entirely?
- rsync 11mo ago
  I have neither a Google nor an Apple account. Well, to be fair, I do create an ephemeral Apple ID every time I get a new phone… But I immediately log out of iCloud after downloading the two or three apps that I use. I have no idea what my Apple ID or password is… I would have to go look them up. Further, if I lost said Apple ID, I would lose nothing of value. I believe, as you say, I exist meaningfully in society.
  - eCa 11mo ago
    > I do create an ephemeral Apple ID every time I get a new phone In other words, you do have an in-use apple id at (pretty much) all times.
    - rsync 11mo ago
      Sure, but it has no value and nothing negative happens if it is revoked. Further: the three apps I install are not crucial - I could live just fine without them. All I really need is Safari and a working POTS endpoint for my cloud-hosted phone number ...
      - tgsovlerkhgsel 11mo ago
        Curious: How do you do your banking? Most of my banks de-facto require an Android or iOS app for authentication, unless you want to do all your banking in person and pay hundreds of Euros in fees every month (and even that would exclude you from many services).
        rsync 11mo ago
        I am a US person and the four (three very large and one smaller, regional) banks that I use do not have any such requirements. Web based online banking (since nothing related to banking requires 3D or VR/AR or camera/mic access or other fancy things that apps do) and 2FA auth. That is all I have ever seen or used.
wat10000 11mo ago
China is quite a bit worse. Not having an Apple or Google account in the US would be kind of inconvenient. Not having WeChat Pay or AliPay in China means you can't buy stuff most places. They've ensured that their de-facto-mandatory services are domestic, but they're a lot more mandatory. I assume the Chinese government is quite happy with this, because they have no trouble bringing their large companies to heel, unlike the US. And centralizing payments like this gives them a great deal of information and control.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- sneak 11mo ago
  The US also has no trouble bringing their large companies into line. Apple willingly preserves a backdoor in the e2ee of iMessage for the FBI et al in the form of effectively unencrypted iCloud Backups. The whole “Apple won’t decrypt stuff for the FBI” narrative is farce. Post Snowden, all the tech CEOs met in person with Obama to do damage control, as they all had some serious credibility problems once the reality of FAA702 (warrantless one click direct access, aka PRISM, aka the #1 source for the IC) came to light.

by sneak 11mo ago

Apreche 11mo ago

Even if there were viable alternatives, I believe people who chose to use an Apple, Google, or any other account should still have the rights I proposed.

alpinisme 11mo ago
As one data point, I would.

raverbashing 11mo ago

This is the naive tech bro view You can't keep chasing alternatives when companies misbehave That's why there's a thick list of contract law precedents and consumer's rights and what not

criddell 11mo ago

Cash being more useful wouldn't help you regain access to your photos, music, email, etc... when your account has been deactivated..

lxgr 11mo ago

> There is no meaningful way to exist in society today without an Apple or Google account As is the case for many other infrastructure companies, such as your local electricity network operator (or even supplier depending on market liberalization). We also didn't solve that problem by ensuring everyone's right to run a generator in their backyard or heat their city apartment with a coal oven. If tech companies have become essential to our day to day lives and are not willing to allow for horizontal interoperability, i.e. to split over-the-top services from infrastructure and individual elements of infrastructure from each other – because walled garden lock-in undoubtedly increases profits – why not regulate them as infrastructure entirely?

rsync 11mo ago
I have neither a Google nor an Apple account. Well, to be fair, I do create an ephemeral Apple ID every time I get a new phone… But I immediately log out of iCloud after downloading the two or three apps that I use. I have no idea what my Apple ID or password is… I would have to go look them up. Further, if I lost said Apple ID, I would lose nothing of value. I believe, as you say, I exist meaningfully in society.
- eCa 11mo ago
  > I do create an ephemeral Apple ID every time I get a new phone In other words, you do have an in-use apple id at (pretty much) all times.
  - rsync 11mo ago
    Sure, but it has no value and nothing negative happens if it is revoked. Further: the three apps I install are not crucial - I could live just fine without them. All I really need is Safari and a working POTS endpoint for my cloud-hosted phone number ...
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 11mo ago
      Curious: How do you do your banking? Most of my banks de-facto require an Android or iOS app for authentication, unless you want to do all your banking in person and pay hundreds of Euros in fees every month (and even that would exclude you from many services).
      - rsync 11mo ago
        I am a US person and the four (three very large and one smaller, regional) banks that I use do not have any such requirements. Web based online banking (since nothing related to banking requires 3D or VR/AR or camera/mic access or other fancy things that apps do) and 2FA auth. That is all I have ever seen or used.

wat10000 11mo ago

China is quite a bit worse. Not having an Apple or Google account in the US would be kind of inconvenient. Not having WeChat Pay or AliPay in China means you can't buy stuff most places. They've ensured that their de-facto-mandatory services are domestic, but they're a lot more mandatory. I assume the Chinese government is quite happy with this, because they have no trouble bringing their large companies to heel, unlike the US. And centralizing payments like this gives them a great deal of information and control.

deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
sneak 11mo ago
The US also has no trouble bringing their large companies into line. Apple willingly preserves a backdoor in the e2ee of iMessage for the FBI et al in the form of effectively unencrypted iCloud Backups. The whole “Apple won’t decrypt stuff for the FBI” narrative is farce. Post Snowden, all the tech CEOs met in person with Obama to do damage control, as they all had some serious credibility problems once the reality of FAA702 (warrantless one click direct access, aka PRISM, aka the #1 source for the IC) came to light.