6 ms·

This fiasco stirs up a lot of different topics for me, none of which seem like they are likely to be resolved anytime soon. First, with so much importance plac

by srmatto 10mo ago

This fiasco stirs up a lot of different topics for me, none of which seem like they are likely to be resolved anytime soon. First, with so much importance placed on an Apple/iCloud account in our current era it's not good that they can be shutdown so trivially. Someone can be shut out from using Messages, Apple Wallet, Digital Identification (depending on where they live) and all their subscriptions and media purchases without any recourse, in an instant. It's not hard to imagine someone being put into a pretty bad situation as a result of this with just a little bad luck and bad timing. It's easy to point out that you shouldn't be overly reliant on these technologies but I think it's more important that there be ways to safe guard people from this scenario. Apple should do more to handle these scenarios given the importance of an account now. Second, there are other recent events that point out the failure modes and gaps that Apple (and Google?) need to address. There apparently is no way to cleanly divide purchases in a Divorce or separation, even if the person was fleeing an abusive situation. There's also no way to leave a "family" account even as an adult or how to assign children to multiple families. Again we can trot out the easy "Just don't use these things, use FOSS, Nextcloud, etc..." but I think Apple should do more to address these types of scenarios regardless of what people choose to use.

Mistletoe 10mo ago
I’m realizing maybe I should just use Amazon or iCloud AND Google Photos for backing up my images. My whole life is in Google Photos. I could lose it from something stupid and never even have a person to contact about that.
- bombcar 10mo ago
  Shutterfly will upload all your photos and store them for free if you buy a few magnets on sale now and then. Works from iPhone well enough and it's my "third backup."
  - BobAliceInATree 10mo ago
    Shutterfly will also continually spam you despite clicking the unsubscribe button multiple times.
- MobiusHorizons 10mo ago
  At least do a google takeout backup. I believe there are ways to import that into software like immich (a self hosted alternative)
- hamdingers 10mo ago
  Set up a NAS and use a self-hosted equivalent like Immich. Then you aren't dependent on anyone.
- bsder 10mo ago
  Immich. https://immich.app/ https://immich.app/ They have their issues, but they are actively working on it.
- justinclift 10mo ago
  It's good you're realising it now, before you lose the lot as has happened to others.
xp84 10mo ago
Absolutely. The current level of service these companies provide is functionally identical to what would have existed 25 years ago. Losing your Apple account would have been a minor annoyance - the relationship involved trivial amounts of money, and wasn’t deeply integrated into anyone’s lives. Even if you lost an email address, losing access to it wouldn’t have locked you out of hundreds of important accounts, and any important accounts would probably be easily updated to a new address with a phone call, and likewise for a few friends. If you got fully locked out forever, it really wasn’t important. So, we now have the same “who cares, it’s just some dumb online account” level of service with much more critical accounts. Because big tech has scaled users to the 9-10 figure range, while not investing almost anything in customer service. Instead of having thousands of CSRs like the phone company, tech employs a few disempowered call center operators overseas, whose only job is to read FAQ answers at callers and ask them to try restarting their computers.
- ethbr1 10mo ago
  To say nothing of weaponized account locking. I shudder to think how vulnerable the current system would be to intentional denial of identity via other parties tripping fraud systems on an account. Say, while the target was traveling?
x0x0 10mo ago
> There apparently is no way to cleanly divide purchases in a Divorce or separation, even if the person was fleeing an abusive situation Believe it or not, google is even more stunningly incompetent than that. If you have someone in your contacts there literally is no way to (1) retain him/her, and (2) ensure they are never, ever, for any reason, suggested in any product. eg in google docs, I do not want "@" autocompletions to suggest the person. No sharing, no drive sharing, no email cc/bcc, etc. In my case, there was a breakup with a cofounder / exit from a company and ongoing collaboration with a friend who shared the same first name. I actually had to delete the former cofounder's contact, which made me miss some calls from an unknown number. Having someone that you need to occasionally maintain contact with that should never be prompted in any way (exes of all types, divorced, stalker) is a basic need in real-world systems.
firefax 10mo ago
iCloud is overrated, it was not encrypted at rest for ages. I much prefer using Time Machine and keeping the passcodes in a PW manager, and maybe a safe deposit box as a backup.
- mvanbaak 10mo ago
  iCloud is a whole lot of things. What you describe is a backup storage solution. Time Machine does not handle: - photo sync between devices and users - shared storage between devices and users (no, not backup, but actual directories and files etc) - private relay - state sync for games and other apps - etc etc
miki123211 10mo ago
To put this as plainly as I possibly can: 1. It is objectively true that Apple and Google accounts are extremely important to many people. 2. It is also objectively true that most users will only need one of each, a few at most. Fraudsters have no such limitations, and may want to create thousands of them per day if the possibility arises. 3. Therefore, it's likely that a significant percentage of all accounts ever created are fraudulent, even if the actual number of fraudsters is much lower. This is the crucial observation many people miss in this debate. 4. Real users do not want constant iMessage spam and other problems resulting from fraudulent accounts remaining open. Therefore, normal users care deeply about fraudulent accounts being closed promptly (and so do money-laundering regulators, but that's another discussion). 5. Normal users also care about their accounts remaining open. Apple has to balance these two problems. 6. If we force Apple (by regulation, PR crisis or any other method) to be softer on closures, the only way to do that without exacerbating #4 is to make opening fraudulent accounts harder. 7. The only reliable way of preventing fraudsters from opening accounts is strict and invasive identity verification. 8. Therefore, if we're asking Apple / Google to keep more accounts open, we're also asking for more surveillance. This may actually be the right tradeoff to make, but it is important to point out that there is a tradeoff here, and that no decision in this regard goes without consequences.
- beeflet 10mo ago
  charge 5$ for the ability to send your first iMessage. problem solved.
  - refactor_master 10mo ago
    So now every fraudster with $5 appears legitimate? Remember blue check marks? The EU is not happy about those. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_25_2934 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_25_...
    - bcye 10mo ago
      They would appear no less legitimate then now?
Denote6737 10mo ago
Apple have a solution. Have separate accounts and buy everything twice.

by srmatto 10mo ago

Mistletoe 10mo ago

I’m realizing maybe I should just use Amazon or iCloud AND Google Photos for backing up my images. My whole life is in Google Photos. I could lose it from something stupid and never even have a person to contact about that.

bombcar 10mo ago
Shutterfly will upload all your photos and store them for free if you buy a few magnets on sale now and then. Works from iPhone well enough and it's my "third backup."
- BobAliceInATree 10mo ago
  Shutterfly will also continually spam you despite clicking the unsubscribe button multiple times.
MobiusHorizons 10mo ago
At least do a google takeout backup. I believe there are ways to import that into software like immich (a self hosted alternative)
hamdingers 10mo ago
Set up a NAS and use a self-hosted equivalent like Immich. Then you aren't dependent on anyone.
bsder 10mo ago
Immich. https://immich.app/ https://immich.app/ They have their issues, but they are actively working on it.
justinclift 10mo ago
It's good you're realising it now, before you lose the lot as has happened to others.

xp84 10mo ago

Absolutely. The current level of service these companies provide is functionally identical to what would have existed 25 years ago. Losing your Apple account would have been a minor annoyance - the relationship involved trivial amounts of money, and wasn’t deeply integrated into anyone’s lives. Even if you lost an email address, losing access to it wouldn’t have locked you out of hundreds of important accounts, and any important accounts would probably be easily updated to a new address with a phone call, and likewise for a few friends. If you got fully locked out forever, it really wasn’t important. So, we now have the same “who cares, it’s just some dumb online account” level of service with much more critical accounts. Because big tech has scaled users to the 9-10 figure range, while not investing almost anything in customer service. Instead of having thousands of CSRs like the phone company, tech employs a few disempowered call center operators overseas, whose only job is to read FAQ answers at callers and ask them to try restarting their computers.

ethbr1 10mo ago
To say nothing of weaponized account locking. I shudder to think how vulnerable the current system would be to intentional denial of identity via other parties tripping fraud systems on an account. Say, while the target was traveling?

x0x0 10mo ago

> There apparently is no way to cleanly divide purchases in a Divorce or separation, even if the person was fleeing an abusive situation Believe it or not, google is even more stunningly incompetent than that. If you have someone in your contacts there literally is no way to (1) retain him/her, and (2) ensure they are never, ever, for any reason, suggested in any product. eg in google docs, I do not want "@" autocompletions to suggest the person. No sharing, no drive sharing, no email cc/bcc, etc. In my case, there was a breakup with a cofounder / exit from a company and ongoing collaboration with a friend who shared the same first name. I actually had to delete the former cofounder's contact, which made me miss some calls from an unknown number. Having someone that you need to occasionally maintain contact with that should never be prompted in any way (exes of all types, divorced, stalker) is a basic need in real-world systems.

firefax 10mo ago

iCloud is overrated, it was not encrypted at rest for ages. I much prefer using Time Machine and keeping the passcodes in a PW manager, and maybe a safe deposit box as a backup.

mvanbaak 10mo ago
iCloud is a whole lot of things. What you describe is a backup storage solution. Time Machine does not handle: - photo sync between devices and users - shared storage between devices and users (no, not backup, but actual directories and files etc) - private relay - state sync for games and other apps - etc etc

miki123211 10mo ago

To put this as plainly as I possibly can: 1. It is objectively true that Apple and Google accounts are extremely important to many people. 2. It is also objectively true that most users will only need one of each, a few at most. Fraudsters have no such limitations, and may want to create thousands of them per day if the possibility arises. 3. Therefore, it's likely that a significant percentage of all accounts ever created are fraudulent, even if the actual number of fraudsters is much lower. This is the crucial observation many people miss in this debate. 4. Real users do not want constant iMessage spam and other problems resulting from fraudulent accounts remaining open. Therefore, normal users care deeply about fraudulent accounts being closed promptly (and so do money-laundering regulators, but that's another discussion). 5. Normal users also care about their accounts remaining open. Apple has to balance these two problems. 6. If we force Apple (by regulation, PR crisis or any other method) to be softer on closures, the only way to do that without exacerbating #4 is to make opening fraudulent accounts harder. 7. The only reliable way of preventing fraudsters from opening accounts is strict and invasive identity verification. 8. Therefore, if we're asking Apple / Google to keep more accounts open, we're also asking for more surveillance. This may actually be the right tradeoff to make, but it is important to point out that there is a tradeoff here, and that no decision in this regard goes without consequences.

beeflet 10mo ago
charge 5$ for the ability to send your first iMessage. problem solved.
- refactor_master 10mo ago
  So now every fraudster with $5 appears legitimate? Remember blue check marks? The EU is not happy about those. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_25_2934 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_25_...
  - bcye 10mo ago
    They would appear no less legitimate then now?

Denote6737 10mo ago

Apple have a solution. Have separate accounts and buy everything twice.