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Can you share why these statements are controversial? They might be misguided or misinformed, but the underlying fact is that women are not as well represented

by mariusor 10mo ago

Can you share why these statements are controversial? They might be misguided or misinformed, but the underlying fact is that women are not as well represented in stem. Just because the reason it's more likely to be misogyny rather than any biological inclination, doesn't make it an outrageous statement in my opinion.

_aavaa_ 10mo ago
Because as a statement is functions to excuse the representation in the field. It completely neglects the actual history of the field of computing, even just the 20th century, where the field was filled with women. It’s only once it became a prestigious field that women suddenly developed a “biological” inclination against it.
- phantasmish 10mo ago
  I… super hesitate to wade into this, but: 1) It was way before it became prestigious. And 2) An explanation of this needs to account for a great and rapid shift in favor of women, as far as proportion-of-practitioners, that was happening at exactly the same time as the opposite shift in programming, in both law and medicine. I don’t know what the actual reason is but “it got prestigious so women got pushed out” makes no sense to me, based on the timeline of events in full context. It was very much not prestigious in the ‘80s and early ‘90s, certainly far less so than law and medicine at that time (still isn’t as prestigious as those, outside tech circles—you can see it in people’s faces. It’s high-paid but lower-“class” than those, to this day)
  - femiagbabiaka 10mo ago
    The traditional way I heard it wasn’t that it was about prestige, but rather that programming became engineering-coded rather than humanities-coded. And misogyny did play a role there, one of the Turing movies had a great story line about it, although I can’t remember the name off hand. Related, I think math went through a similar transition.
  - _aavaa_ 10mo ago
    As others have pointed out, prestigious is too strong of a word, what I actually meant was "a job a man could be seen as doing".
- CamperBob2 10mo ago
  It completely neglects the actual history of the field of computing, even just the 20th century, where the field was filled with women. Something interesting that I think a lot of younger people don't appreciate: back in the day, unless your name was Hemingway, it was considered unmanly to touch a keyboard. Anything that involved a typewriter or anything else with a keyboard was distaff by definition, just so much secretarial work. Maybe a journalist's job, if you were feeling generous. Sounds stupid as hell, and it was, but that's a big reason why women played an outsized part in the growth of computing. First as the 'calculators' in WWII, then as Baudot terminals started to take over, as keyboard operators. Don't make the mistake of assuming they were all Grace Hoppers or Margaret Hamiltons or Adele Goldbergs, because that simply wasn't the case. Many of them might have been, though, in a less stereotype-driven world.
__alexs 10mo ago
The difference in participation within STEM between men and women is not well explained by biological differences. Blow has repeatedly claimed that it is actually the primary factor and seems actively disinterested in other explanations. This is "controversial" in that it's a position that is not well supported by evidence and he has repeatedly used his platform in the past to make unsupported claims to the contrary.
- mariusor 10mo ago
  OK, he's wrong. But is that enough to state that he "doesn't seem to think that women have any role to play in his profession"?
  - __alexs 10mo ago
    I don't think he's said exactly that in his own words but I think on balance it's fair to say he doesn't seem welcoming about it. He clearly has right leaning and libertarian views, and seems to be not very articulate or sensitive in how he discusses them so I can see why people might read into that more than they should maybe.
    - psyopsy 10mo ago
      Thekla currently has 10 core permanent employees. 5 of them are women, including their studio manager, creative and art Director, a programmer, and 2 additional artists. You can say whatever the hell you want. Or you could spend 3 minutes actually looking at public information to see if you're wrong.
      - __alexs 10mo ago
        I don't think these statements are contradictory.
        psyopsy 10mo ago
        Half his employees are women—including leadership, programming, and creative roles. If that doesn’t count as “thinking women have a role,” what would? 51%? 90%? You’re relying on blatant social media mischaracterizations over real actions. He actually employs women at parity. You feel like this is unwelcoming. One of those statements is data. The other is fanfic.

_aavaa_ 10mo ago

Because as a statement is functions to excuse the representation in the field. It completely neglects the actual history of the field of computing, even just the 20th century, where the field was filled with women. It’s only once it became a prestigious field that women suddenly developed a “biological” inclination against it.

phantasmish 10mo ago
I… super hesitate to wade into this, but: 1) It was way before it became prestigious. And 2) An explanation of this needs to account for a great and rapid shift in favor of women, as far as proportion-of-practitioners, that was happening at exactly the same time as the opposite shift in programming, in both law and medicine. I don’t know what the actual reason is but “it got prestigious so women got pushed out” makes no sense to me, based on the timeline of events in full context. It was very much not prestigious in the ‘80s and early ‘90s, certainly far less so than law and medicine at that time (still isn’t as prestigious as those, outside tech circles—you can see it in people’s faces. It’s high-paid but lower-“class” than those, to this day)
- femiagbabiaka 10mo ago
  The traditional way I heard it wasn’t that it was about prestige, but rather that programming became engineering-coded rather than humanities-coded. And misogyny did play a role there, one of the Turing movies had a great story line about it, although I can’t remember the name off hand. Related, I think math went through a similar transition.
- _aavaa_ 10mo ago
  As others have pointed out, prestigious is too strong of a word, what I actually meant was "a job a man could be seen as doing".
CamperBob2 10mo ago
It completely neglects the actual history of the field of computing, even just the 20th century, where the field was filled with women. Something interesting that I think a lot of younger people don't appreciate: back in the day, unless your name was Hemingway, it was considered unmanly to touch a keyboard. Anything that involved a typewriter or anything else with a keyboard was distaff by definition, just so much secretarial work. Maybe a journalist's job, if you were feeling generous. Sounds stupid as hell, and it was, but that's a big reason why women played an outsized part in the growth of computing. First as the 'calculators' in WWII, then as Baudot terminals started to take over, as keyboard operators. Don't make the mistake of assuming they were all Grace Hoppers or Margaret Hamiltons or Adele Goldbergs, because that simply wasn't the case. Many of them might have been, though, in a less stereotype-driven world.

__alexs 10mo ago

The difference in participation within STEM between men and women is not well explained by biological differences. Blow has repeatedly claimed that it is actually the primary factor and seems actively disinterested in other explanations. This is "controversial" in that it's a position that is not well supported by evidence and he has repeatedly used his platform in the past to make unsupported claims to the contrary.

mariusor 10mo ago
OK, he's wrong. But is that enough to state that he "doesn't seem to think that women have any role to play in his profession"?
- __alexs 10mo ago
  I don't think he's said exactly that in his own words but I think on balance it's fair to say he doesn't seem welcoming about it. He clearly has right leaning and libertarian views, and seems to be not very articulate or sensitive in how he discusses them so I can see why people might read into that more than they should maybe.
  - psyopsy 10mo ago
    Thekla currently has 10 core permanent employees. 5 of them are women, including their studio manager, creative and art Director, a programmer, and 2 additional artists. You can say whatever the hell you want. Or you could spend 3 minutes actually looking at public information to see if you're wrong.
    - __alexs 10mo ago
      I don't think these statements are contradictory.
      - psyopsy 10mo ago
        Half his employees are women—including leadership, programming, and creative roles. If that doesn’t count as “thinking women have a role,” what would? 51%? 90%? You’re relying on blatant social media mischaracterizations over real actions. He actually employs women at parity. You feel like this is unwelcoming. One of those statements is data. The other is fanfic.