4 ms·

I worked in recruiting for a long time and I can tell you I never saw much in the way of any deliberate strategy to create fake job posts. The thing is that wh

I worked in recruiting for a long time and I can tell you I never saw much in the way of any deliberate strategy to create fake job posts. The thing is that whether or not a job exists at a point in time is far less black and white than you might naively think. There are many reasons for it to be somewhat grey and banning the practice doesn’t really mean anything because you would have to quantify precisely under what circumstances a job is allowed to be advertised and as I say, it’s not as clear as you might imagine. There is absolutely not a one to one relationship between a job and a job ad.

BoiledCabbage 10mo ago
> There is absolutely not a one to one relationship between a job and a job ad. Sounds like you've figured out exactly the problem then. If you're advertising for a job and there isn't a job then you've got a problem.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- ben_w 10mo ago
  Some anecdotes, specific ways it can be unclear how many job openings exist: I applied for some jobs, two of them liked me and I reached the point where they were competing with each other for me, and I was in salary negotiations. One of them, suddenly, decided to stop trading. I still don't know why. Another time, I started working(!) and getting paid, but after 6 months the person who everyone (including themselves) was expecting to leave and for me to replace had still not found a new job (presumably due to all the ghost jobs), and there wasn't enough money for both me and them. Last in, first out, bye to me. One place hired an PM about two weeks before the investors decided to shutter the entire company. (For actual ghost jobs: in my own job hunt after that, I found listings on job boards for that company, that were clearly from several years before I'd joined given the advertised wage range; as the company had told everyone to stop coming in for their notice period, there wasn't even anyone left to ask for those to be deleted). Back when my dad was around, one of his anecdotes about interviewing candidates was asking the candidate "Why did you leave your last job?" and getting a reply along the lines of "After 6 months, management found out that our entire floor had been hired to do the same thing as the floor next to us. One of the floors had to go."
jimbohn 10mo ago
>There is absolutely not a one to one relationship between a job and a job ad. Isn't this a problem? It means companies are wasting individuals' time (hence money), whereas companies are in a better position to hedge the risk. Would it be legal if I started, for example, posting fake apartment ads and not show up (because the apartment doesn't even exist)? Would it be ethical?
colechristensen 10mo ago
Create a state or local job posting registry. Put a tax of 10% one year's salary on any employee hired without a registry posting. (employers to put the job posting number on the I-9 form) Put a $1000 tax on any job posting not filled or cancelled within six months. Make that information public.
RobotToaster 10mo ago
Can you explain why this is? Or give some examples?
- ajb 10mo ago
  Not the OP, but here are a few reasons I've seen: - the boss has agreed to the role but has reservations, seeing a few candidates solidifies them and permission to hire us withdrawn - the team is inexperienced at hiring and don't know what they want until they've seen a few candidates - the company is hiring a new whole team. To make hiring easier, roles that are listed are "representative roles" - the total desired skill set across all roles is accurate but the company doesn't care what the split is, they just want a team that covers it. So a candidate who is a better fit for a listed role can be passed over in favour of one that happens to be the right jigsaw piece. - circumstances changed since permission to hire was given, and no-one remembered to update the hiring portal; because unless you're actively hiring no-one looks at it. This last one is quite common, because there are so many applications usually that no-one wants them in their email.
- michaelt 10mo ago
  A company has a graduate scheme, they might be hiring 4 graduates this year, they might be hiring 40. Only one job advert. External recruiters might then re-advertise the job with the company name removed, planning to funnel people to the company and collect their 20% commission. External recruiters with several jobs might merge them into one. $250k job for a senior java developer with 5 years finance experience + $75k job for a junior java developer = advertise $250k job for a java developer. A company might have a slow, centralised hiring pipeline for some roles. Google has a recruiter check the candidate's resume before putting you into a lengthy 6+ interview gauntlet, but only at the end of it do hiring managers actually check if the resume matches an open job. And if course if it takes 2 months to get through the full pipeline, the jobs open at the end aren't the same as the jobs open at the start.
- sokoloff 10mo ago
  I might need four different (distinct) roles filled but only have budget for three employees. I’d be prone to advertise (and genuinely recruit) all four roles, and hire the first three that I find a good fit for, delaying the fourth until/if additional budget frees up. I might be willing to hire for two different levels of seniority/experience, but only one xor the other, not both. Or be willing to hire for a role in Boston, London, or Zurich, but only one of those.

BoiledCabbage 10mo ago

> There is absolutely not a one to one relationship between a job and a job ad. Sounds like you've figured out exactly the problem then. If you're advertising for a job and there isn't a job then you've got a problem.

deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
ben_w 10mo ago
Some anecdotes, specific ways it can be unclear how many job openings exist: I applied for some jobs, two of them liked me and I reached the point where they were competing with each other for me, and I was in salary negotiations. One of them, suddenly, decided to stop trading. I still don't know why. Another time, I started working(!) and getting paid, but after 6 months the person who everyone (including themselves) was expecting to leave and for me to replace had still not found a new job (presumably due to all the ghost jobs), and there wasn't enough money for both me and them. Last in, first out, bye to me. One place hired an PM about two weeks before the investors decided to shutter the entire company. (For actual ghost jobs: in my own job hunt after that, I found listings on job boards for that company, that were clearly from several years before I'd joined given the advertised wage range; as the company had told everyone to stop coming in for their notice period, there wasn't even anyone left to ask for those to be deleted). Back when my dad was around, one of his anecdotes about interviewing candidates was asking the candidate "Why did you leave your last job?" and getting a reply along the lines of "After 6 months, management found out that our entire floor had been hired to do the same thing as the floor next to us. One of the floors had to go."

jimbohn 10mo ago

>There is absolutely not a one to one relationship between a job and a job ad. Isn't this a problem? It means companies are wasting individuals' time (hence money), whereas companies are in a better position to hedge the risk. Would it be legal if I started, for example, posting fake apartment ads and not show up (because the apartment doesn't even exist)? Would it be ethical?

colechristensen 10mo ago

Create a state or local job posting registry. Put a tax of 10% one year's salary on any employee hired without a registry posting. (employers to put the job posting number on the I-9 form) Put a $1000 tax on any job posting not filled or cancelled within six months. Make that information public.

RobotToaster 10mo ago

Can you explain why this is? Or give some examples?

ajb 10mo ago
Not the OP, but here are a few reasons I've seen: - the boss has agreed to the role but has reservations, seeing a few candidates solidifies them and permission to hire us withdrawn - the team is inexperienced at hiring and don't know what they want until they've seen a few candidates - the company is hiring a new whole team. To make hiring easier, roles that are listed are "representative roles" - the total desired skill set across all roles is accurate but the company doesn't care what the split is, they just want a team that covers it. So a candidate who is a better fit for a listed role can be passed over in favour of one that happens to be the right jigsaw piece. - circumstances changed since permission to hire was given, and no-one remembered to update the hiring portal; because unless you're actively hiring no-one looks at it. This last one is quite common, because there are so many applications usually that no-one wants them in their email.
michaelt 10mo ago
A company has a graduate scheme, they might be hiring 4 graduates this year, they might be hiring 40. Only one job advert. External recruiters might then re-advertise the job with the company name removed, planning to funnel people to the company and collect their 20% commission. External recruiters with several jobs might merge them into one. $250k job for a senior java developer with 5 years finance experience + $75k job for a junior java developer = advertise $250k job for a java developer. A company might have a slow, centralised hiring pipeline for some roles. Google has a recruiter check the candidate's resume before putting you into a lengthy 6+ interview gauntlet, but only at the end of it do hiring managers actually check if the resume matches an open job. And if course if it takes 2 months to get through the full pipeline, the jobs open at the end aren't the same as the jobs open at the start.
sokoloff 10mo ago
I might need four different (distinct) roles filled but only have budget for three employees. I’d be prone to advertise (and genuinely recruit) all four roles, and hire the first three that I find a good fit for, delaying the fourth until/if additional budget frees up. I might be willing to hire for two different levels of seniority/experience, but only one xor the other, not both. Or be willing to hire for a role in Boston, London, or Zurich, but only one of those.