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> Similarly, many plants "lean" to point towards the sun. Are they "remembering" where the sun is with the increased growth on the far side? If they had put th

by jmmcd 14y ago

> Similarly, many plants "lean" to point towards the sun. Are they "remembering" where the sun is with the increased growth on the far side? If they had put the sun there first, then yeah, that would be external memory. That's the difference.

Groxx 14y ago
No, plants which do this generally grow less on the sunny side of their stalk. They are putting more / larger cells on the far side, as a form of memory. A crude counting system, if you will - when side A > side B, side B is where the sun is. Arguably this is even more complex than a mere external memory system - it deals in continuous ratios, rather than booleans!
- jmmcd 14y ago
  Hmm. If you're just talking about the extra growth, then that's not even external. I don't think it's a good example.
  - Groxx 14y ago
    Not of an external memory system, no. This would be internal. But would you call it "an internal memory system", or "decreased growth in reaction to sunlight"? Another option: (micro-)evolution. Is an amoeba's resistance to a chemical "memory", or an environment-selected random mutation? Again, technically it can be viewed as memory, but it's diluting the term so far as to make it a catch-all for any kind of information, ever, to get someone to click on a link.
    - jmmcd 14y ago
      > But would you call it "an internal memory system" Well, it's not being used later on to make decisions, is it? I suppose I will go with that for my definition of memory: the agent makes a change to the state of the world (external) or to its own state (internal) and that change later affects its action. Using that definition, my answer re the amoeba is yes. I can see why it seems too broad. But I don't know a better definition. I suppose one could stipulate that consciousness is required. But I don't think that would be a standard position.
      - Groxx 14y ago
        >Well, it's not being used later on to make decisions, is it? No, you have a point there. I missed that part. Though I just realized your new definition implies this: a river has memory. To each their own :) I'll still call it too broad, but that's pure opinion.
        jmmcd 14y ago
        > a river has memory Nice point... well, I'm all ears for a better definition :)

by jmmcd 14y ago

Groxx 14y ago

No, plants which do this generally grow less on the sunny side of their stalk. They are putting more / larger cells on the far side, as a form of memory. A crude counting system, if you will - when side A > side B, side B is where the sun is. Arguably this is even more complex than a mere external memory system - it deals in continuous ratios, rather than booleans!

jmmcd 14y ago
Hmm. If you're just talking about the extra growth, then that's not even external. I don't think it's a good example.
- Groxx 14y ago
  Not of an external memory system, no. This would be internal. But would you call it "an internal memory system", or "decreased growth in reaction to sunlight"? Another option: (micro-)evolution. Is an amoeba's resistance to a chemical "memory", or an environment-selected random mutation? Again, technically it can be viewed as memory, but it's diluting the term so far as to make it a catch-all for any kind of information, ever, to get someone to click on a link.
  - jmmcd 14y ago
    > But would you call it "an internal memory system" Well, it's not being used later on to make decisions, is it? I suppose I will go with that for my definition of memory: the agent makes a change to the state of the world (external) or to its own state (internal) and that change later affects its action. Using that definition, my answer re the amoeba is yes. I can see why it seems too broad. But I don't know a better definition. I suppose one could stipulate that consciousness is required. But I don't think that would be a standard position.
    - Groxx 14y ago
      >Well, it's not being used later on to make decisions, is it? No, you have a point there. I missed that part. Though I just realized your new definition implies this: a river has memory. To each their own :) I'll still call it too broad, but that's pure opinion.
      - jmmcd 14y ago
        > a river has memory Nice point... well, I'm all ears for a better definition :)