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> It really is a learnable skill! ... We've just forgotten the habit as a society of teaching it to our children. I think that's a hasty generalization. Some

by kijin 14y ago

> It really is a learnable skill! ... We've just forgotten the habit as a society of teaching it to our children. I think that's a hasty generalization. Some people are merely introverted, and can improve their social intelligence through everyday practice. Others, however, actually have a neurological condition (i.e. Asperger's Syndrome, which the article mentions). At least for some subset of them, "social intelligence" is little more than analytic intelligence applied to something that has a very low signal-to-noise ratio. You can discern the signal from time to time if you concentrate hard enough, and you can put an abstraction layer on top of all the analytic processing so that the result looks somewhat like "social intelligence". But at bottom, it's always like trying to do floating-point calculations on a processor that was only designed for integer calculations. It's inefficient by many orders of magnitude, because you have to fake every step. Of course, there isn't a clear line between an introverted neurotypical and an Aspie. But just because the transition is gradual doesn't mean that the difference doesn't exist. It makes me sad whenever an article like this uses the word "Asperger's" to describe typical introverted programmers. (This is a complaint about the article, not the parent comment.) It also makes me sad to read comments that make excessively broad generalizations about how people (should) acquire social intelligence. (This is a complaint about the parent comment.) Overgeneral advice, even if well-intentioned, could give neurotypicals the misleading idea that Aspies behave like they do because of their own fault (lack of effort). Nowadays, we often throw around psychiatric terms to describe behavior that falls within the normal range. "I'm feeling ADHD today." "He's a bit of an Aspie." "She acts as if she has bipolar disorder when she's drunk." etc. Although some of these are meant to be comical and we all have some use for metaphors and exaggerations, we should be careful not to make serious generalizations based on such informal usage of terms.

erichocean 14y ago
I do find it interesting that we ask Aspies to become more empathetic, but we don't ask neurotipicals to become a little less hung up on social niceties. Obviously, neurotypicals get the benefit of the doubt for "how people should be", since there are so many more of them. But we don't ask gays to be straight, despite not being "normal", numerically, so why should we ask Aspies to be more empathetic? Why assume an Aspie is broken, by default? Where's the proof that lack of empathy is a problem for anything other than working with neurotypicals? I can't help but wonder that the future might not actually belong to neurotypicals. That, perhaps, the Aspie mutation might be better adapted to a world that is becoming more and more computerized and less and less hospitable to neurotypicals. For example, consider Zynga. How many normals are completely wasting their lives and earnings on an objectively stupid social game because their normal, empathetic minds have been hacked to "like" and see value in it? We all can see that it's sad, and yet we know there's virtually nothing that can be done for them, short of banning those games. They simply cannot adapt, where Aspies can (and have). Neurotypicals seem to think Aspies have "anti-social" lives, but those I've met seem pretty happy. And at least from my perspective, are really straightforward to get along with, if you can understand their behavior and not take offense and what would normally be a slight in neurotypical-land. Perhaps trying to turn Aspies into neurotypicals is really only beneficial today because most of the world is normal, so Aspies, to some degree, need to work with neurotypicals if they are to achieve anything. But how long will that be true? When will a critical mass of Aspies exist, or the world become hospitable to them despite not having to pretend to be neurotypicals? And what then? Do we continue to try and "make the gays straight", so to speak? Or do we realize that an Aspie is just as valid a way to live as anything else, and not a disability to be overcome? It's strange to see evolution happen right in front of us. I don't have any answers, but these are the thoughts that have occurred to me for some time now, and I thought I'd share.
- PakG1 14y ago
  We do do this. Have you never been involved in a work conversation where someone says, "Get to the point, you're wasting everyone's time." Have you never gone to someone to make a request, and you're starting out with a long spiel about your reasons, and the other person says, "Look, I'm busy, just tell me what it is you want." I see these kinds of conversations a lot. It's not always in one direction.
  - kijin 14y ago
    Yes, being busy is an excellent excuse to behave a bit like an Aspie, even if you're neurotypical. Aspies (and introverts in general) thrive in environments where people are evaluated more on the basis of getting shit done quickly and accurately, and less on the basis of how often they drink with their boss. It's maker's schedule vs. manager's schedule all over again. So, in a sense, modern societies' increasing emphasis on efficiency and productivity might work in favor of Aspies. So does urbanization, which allows you to disregard what your great-aunt's second cousin thinks about your new socks.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Do you think that aspies are less susceptible to Zynga games? I don't know either way but in my own experience aspie types that I have met seem much more likely to be hooked on games like WoW certainly. I'm not sure that the comparison to gays works so well because by and large being gay doesn't affect your day to day relationships with other people apart from in specific circumstances. Unless you act in a stereotypical gay fashion it's quite likely that nobody will ever know you are gay unless you tell them. I've met plenty of people whom I've known have been gay but in all likelyhood I've met countless more who have been gay and I've had no idea. It's very hard to hide if you are an aspie or socially retarded in some way and it's something that is likely to affect your relationship with everybody who you meet. By and large these effects will also be negative since people are uncomfortable around people they regard as "weird".
  - kijin 14y ago
    Zynga specializes in social games. FarmVille is rather pointless if you're not interesting in visiting your friends' farms and chatting about each other's cows. WoW, on the other hand, is fun to play even if you're not into idle chitchat. Now, Minecraft, that's an Aspie's wet dream.
rcthompson 14y ago
> At least for some subset of them, "social intelligence" is little more than analytic intelligence applied to something that has a very low signal-to-noise ratio. Yep, that's exactly what it feels like to me. I recently got diagnosed with Asperger's. I find it impossible to do "social intelligence" in real time during a conversation. The frustrating part is that the signal is obviously there, since other people pick up on it just fine.
- fatboy 14y ago
  Do you find it possible to identify the signals by analysing interactions after the fact, not in real time?
  - rcthompson 14y ago
    Sometimes I realize hours or days later that I missed something obvious and important, but of course I cannot do this for every social interaction because I don't have time. Also, thinking about it leaves me mentally exhausted in the same way that organic chemistry and advanced mathematics (two subjects I find easy) do for neurotypicals. But my after-the-fact realizations are contingent upon my noticing and remembering specific details that indicate emotion, which is totally hit-or-miss.
- graeme 14y ago
  Paul Ekman has extensively documented micro expressions, which are trace views of the signal. Studying them will teach you the normal, longer expressions too, that's how I learned. How exactly does asperger's work? For me the learning process went: Learn that crinkles under the eye mean smile is real --> observe it quite a bit --> learn to see it naturally and intuitively That doesn't feel any different from any normal skill acquisition. But I may have had the advantage of some neural mechanism absent in aspie brains. Anyway, the whole process only took a few months. Ekman has som microexpression training CDs, highly recommended.
  - kijin 14y ago
    > learn to see it naturally and intuitively What exactly does it mean for something to become natural and intuitive? It's not unimaginable for an Aspie to learn to observe all sorts of behavioral hints -- BBC's recent incarnation of Sherlock Holmes does this exceptionally well -- but does he actually reach the decision that "This person is telling the truth" by the same process that a "normal" person does? In my experience as an Aspie, it never happens automatically, and it never feels natural. I can hear every line of the code that's being interpreted and executed in my mind. I have a fast CPU, so it doesn't take long, but it definitely happens. if (smile) { try { check_wrinkles(under_eyes); } catch (CantTellException) { make_do_with_rough_assumption(); } } Even worse, Aspies tend to focus intensely on one thing at a time, so multi-tasking is risky business. An Aspie who learned to watch for wrinkles under eyes in real-time might focus so much on nothing but wrinkles under eyes, so that much more obvious signs of lying go completely unnoticed. In other words, check_wrinkles() blocks everything else. Similarly, even though I have extensive experience both in walking around and in hearing my own name, if somebody calls my name from behind while I'm walking, there's over 50% chance that the call won't even register, because every event handler must wait while walk() blocks. Also, the whole program crashes when an unanticipated exception occurs, resulting in extreme frustration. As a consequence, when an Aspie finally gets enough practice to pass as normal, he might look like a normal person to casual observers, but the Aspie himself is always painfully aware that what he's doing is neither natural nor intuitive. At best, he's got the script cached in RAM for quick access.
gadders 14y ago
One point I would like to make: being an introvert doesn't mean you can't interact in a group situation (or have low social intelligence), it's just not your preferred situation. I'd rather be reading a book than socialising with colleagues after work, but I do it and am far from a wallflower. I also had an instructor on a course (on brainstorming) and he was very energetic, dynamic and dominated the room (in a good way). I chatted to him after the course and got on the subject of Myers-Briggs, and he said he was actually an introvert. He had just learnt (through training as an actor amongst other things) to be an extrovert when the situation required it.
notlisted 14y ago
What is considered "social" is also a cultural issue. People often talk about Steve Jobs being an asshole. I suspect he too didn't ascribe to the prevailing no-fault social model in de USA. In terms of social interaction, the USA is the exception, not the norm. Many other cultures are more direct, critical, and less respectful of other's opinions if they "know better". For Aspies it would be easier to live elsewhere. Americans somehow are no longer used to being told that they're wrong. They demand respect for their opinions (or worse: beliefs) which they won't get elsewhere unless based in facts/reason. Have you ever worked with Europeans, especially people from The Netherlands or Russia? Free advice is meted out generously and without excuses. According to them, Americans are extremely hung up on certain "niceties" that Dutchies (and much of Europe) consider "fake" or "politically correct". In reverse, Americans generally consider the French (and Dutch, and Russians, etc.) "rude". I'm not necessarily saying the directness/truth is better, but it saves a bunch of time/bull as pointed out elsewhere. It requires some getting used to for the non-initiated... but once they do, they like it. My clients pay me for it. I love working with 'Aspies', but I won't take them into a client meeting anymore. :-) (chuckle: Customer is very happy with a new feature and remarks "oh wow, that must have taken a long time to implement". I was happy he said so, because we were close to going over budget and I wanted to send him another invoice. Aspie programmer, rightfully proud of his work: "oh no, not at all, perhaps 15 minutes!")

by kijin 14y ago

erichocean 14y ago

I do find it interesting that we ask Aspies to become more empathetic, but we don't ask neurotipicals to become a little less hung up on social niceties. Obviously, neurotypicals get the benefit of the doubt for "how people should be", since there are so many more of them. But we don't ask gays to be straight, despite not being "normal", numerically, so why should we ask Aspies to be more empathetic? Why assume an Aspie is broken, by default? Where's the proof that lack of empathy is a problem for anything other than working with neurotypicals? I can't help but wonder that the future might not actually belong to neurotypicals. That, perhaps, the Aspie mutation might be better adapted to a world that is becoming more and more computerized and less and less hospitable to neurotypicals. For example, consider Zynga. How many normals are completely wasting their lives and earnings on an objectively stupid social game because their normal, empathetic minds have been hacked to "like" and see value in it? We all can see that it's sad, and yet we know there's virtually nothing that can be done for them, short of banning those games. They simply cannot adapt, where Aspies can (and have). Neurotypicals seem to think Aspies have "anti-social" lives, but those I've met seem pretty happy. And at least from my perspective, are really straightforward to get along with, if you can understand their behavior and not take offense and what would normally be a slight in neurotypical-land. Perhaps trying to turn Aspies into neurotypicals is really only beneficial today because most of the world is normal, so Aspies, to some degree, need to work with neurotypicals if they are to achieve anything. But how long will that be true? When will a critical mass of Aspies exist, or the world become hospitable to them despite not having to pretend to be neurotypicals? And what then? Do we continue to try and "make the gays straight", so to speak? Or do we realize that an Aspie is just as valid a way to live as anything else, and not a disability to be overcome? It's strange to see evolution happen right in front of us. I don't have any answers, but these are the thoughts that have occurred to me for some time now, and I thought I'd share.

PakG1 14y ago
We do do this. Have you never been involved in a work conversation where someone says, "Get to the point, you're wasting everyone's time." Have you never gone to someone to make a request, and you're starting out with a long spiel about your reasons, and the other person says, "Look, I'm busy, just tell me what it is you want." I see these kinds of conversations a lot. It's not always in one direction.
- kijin 14y ago
  Yes, being busy is an excellent excuse to behave a bit like an Aspie, even if you're neurotypical. Aspies (and introverts in general) thrive in environments where people are evaluated more on the basis of getting shit done quickly and accurately, and less on the basis of how often they drink with their boss. It's maker's schedule vs. manager's schedule all over again. So, in a sense, modern societies' increasing emphasis on efficiency and productivity might work in favor of Aspies. So does urbanization, which allows you to disregard what your great-aunt's second cousin thinks about your new socks.
jiggy2011 14y ago
Do you think that aspies are less susceptible to Zynga games? I don't know either way but in my own experience aspie types that I have met seem much more likely to be hooked on games like WoW certainly. I'm not sure that the comparison to gays works so well because by and large being gay doesn't affect your day to day relationships with other people apart from in specific circumstances. Unless you act in a stereotypical gay fashion it's quite likely that nobody will ever know you are gay unless you tell them. I've met plenty of people whom I've known have been gay but in all likelyhood I've met countless more who have been gay and I've had no idea. It's very hard to hide if you are an aspie or socially retarded in some way and it's something that is likely to affect your relationship with everybody who you meet. By and large these effects will also be negative since people are uncomfortable around people they regard as "weird".
- kijin 14y ago
  Zynga specializes in social games. FarmVille is rather pointless if you're not interesting in visiting your friends' farms and chatting about each other's cows. WoW, on the other hand, is fun to play even if you're not into idle chitchat. Now, Minecraft, that's an Aspie's wet dream.

rcthompson 14y ago

> At least for some subset of them, "social intelligence" is little more than analytic intelligence applied to something that has a very low signal-to-noise ratio. Yep, that's exactly what it feels like to me. I recently got diagnosed with Asperger's. I find it impossible to do "social intelligence" in real time during a conversation. The frustrating part is that the signal is obviously there, since other people pick up on it just fine.

fatboy 14y ago
Do you find it possible to identify the signals by analysing interactions after the fact, not in real time?
- rcthompson 14y ago
  Sometimes I realize hours or days later that I missed something obvious and important, but of course I cannot do this for every social interaction because I don't have time. Also, thinking about it leaves me mentally exhausted in the same way that organic chemistry and advanced mathematics (two subjects I find easy) do for neurotypicals. But my after-the-fact realizations are contingent upon my noticing and remembering specific details that indicate emotion, which is totally hit-or-miss.
graeme 14y ago
Paul Ekman has extensively documented micro expressions, which are trace views of the signal. Studying them will teach you the normal, longer expressions too, that's how I learned. How exactly does asperger's work? For me the learning process went: Learn that crinkles under the eye mean smile is real --> observe it quite a bit --> learn to see it naturally and intuitively That doesn't feel any different from any normal skill acquisition. But I may have had the advantage of some neural mechanism absent in aspie brains. Anyway, the whole process only took a few months. Ekman has som microexpression training CDs, highly recommended.
- kijin 14y ago
  > learn to see it naturally and intuitively What exactly does it mean for something to become natural and intuitive? It's not unimaginable for an Aspie to learn to observe all sorts of behavioral hints -- BBC's recent incarnation of Sherlock Holmes does this exceptionally well -- but does he actually reach the decision that "This person is telling the truth" by the same process that a "normal" person does? In my experience as an Aspie, it never happens automatically, and it never feels natural. I can hear every line of the code that's being interpreted and executed in my mind. I have a fast CPU, so it doesn't take long, but it definitely happens. if (smile) { try { check_wrinkles(under_eyes); } catch (CantTellException) { make_do_with_rough_assumption(); } } Even worse, Aspies tend to focus intensely on one thing at a time, so multi-tasking is risky business. An Aspie who learned to watch for wrinkles under eyes in real-time might focus so much on nothing but wrinkles under eyes, so that much more obvious signs of lying go completely unnoticed. In other words, check_wrinkles() blocks everything else. Similarly, even though I have extensive experience both in walking around and in hearing my own name, if somebody calls my name from behind while I'm walking, there's over 50% chance that the call won't even register, because every event handler must wait while walk() blocks. Also, the whole program crashes when an unanticipated exception occurs, resulting in extreme frustration. As a consequence, when an Aspie finally gets enough practice to pass as normal, he might look like a normal person to casual observers, but the Aspie himself is always painfully aware that what he's doing is neither natural nor intuitive. At best, he's got the script cached in RAM for quick access.

gadders 14y ago

One point I would like to make: being an introvert doesn't mean you can't interact in a group situation (or have low social intelligence), it's just not your preferred situation. I'd rather be reading a book than socialising with colleagues after work, but I do it and am far from a wallflower. I also had an instructor on a course (on brainstorming) and he was very energetic, dynamic and dominated the room (in a good way). I chatted to him after the course and got on the subject of Myers-Briggs, and he said he was actually an introvert. He had just learnt (through training as an actor amongst other things) to be an extrovert when the situation required it.

notlisted 14y ago

What is considered "social" is also a cultural issue. People often talk about Steve Jobs being an asshole. I suspect he too didn't ascribe to the prevailing no-fault social model in de USA. In terms of social interaction, the USA is the exception, not the norm. Many other cultures are more direct, critical, and less respectful of other's opinions if they "know better". For Aspies it would be easier to live elsewhere. Americans somehow are no longer used to being told that they're wrong. They demand respect for their opinions (or worse: beliefs) which they won't get elsewhere unless based in facts/reason. Have you ever worked with Europeans, especially people from The Netherlands or Russia? Free advice is meted out generously and without excuses. According to them, Americans are extremely hung up on certain "niceties" that Dutchies (and much of Europe) consider "fake" or "politically correct". In reverse, Americans generally consider the French (and Dutch, and Russians, etc.) "rude". I'm not necessarily saying the directness/truth is better, but it saves a bunch of time/bull as pointed out elsewhere. It requires some getting used to for the non-initiated... but once they do, they like it. My clients pay me for it. I love working with 'Aspies', but I won't take them into a client meeting anymore. :-) (chuckle: Customer is very happy with a new feature and remarks "oh wow, that must have taken a long time to implement". I was happy he said so, because we were close to going over budget and I wanted to send him another invoice. Aspie programmer, rightfully proud of his work: "oh no, not at all, perhaps 15 minutes!")