5 ms·

Getting all the rich creeps to leave is a feature.

fusiongyro 14y ago
That's a myopic view of economics. How could it improve things to have the group with all the money leave, taking it with them?
- ucee054 14y ago
  They can be prevented from taking it with them. Try renouncing US citizenship; you'll have to pay a big penalty to the IRS to do so...
  - fusiongyro 14y ago
    Yes, but people are starting to do it. People who get wealthy tend to care about their money a lot, and are very willing to do the math and see if the big penalty at departure is higher or lower than the sustained penalty of staying.
- dscrd 14y ago
  But aren't you just legitimizing a sort of blackmail culture when you suggest that the rich must be pampered or they will take all their toys and go away?
Cbasedlifeform 14y ago
The problem is if they take the young gifted entrepreneurs with them. I heard anecdotally that they were already leaving e.g. for London and that was before this latest tax increase.
- stfu 14y ago
  I truly hope that this is going to be the result of the French "situation". It would be once and for all great to have some more substantial evidence on how growth, innovation and consumption dramatically goes down, when governments go on a tax-the-wealthy witch hunt . Bernard Arnault should be hailed as an example, not a traitor, for leaving France and getting a Belgian citizenship. Postulating a Unified Europe by pushing the ongoing de-nationalization of the EU member countries is absolutely antithetic to the expectation that tax payers should feel obliged to pay taxes to their home country, and not switch to the one most beneficiary for them.
  - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
    Postulating a Unified Europe by pushing the ongoing de-nationalization of the EU member countries is absolutely antithetic to the expectation that tax payers should feel obliged to pay taxes to their home country, and not switch to the one most beneficiary for them. Which is precisely why de-nationalizing Europe is such a bad idea.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
irreverentbits 14y ago
Yes, exactly. Disincentivizing innovation and the financial machine that backs it is an /excellent/ idea.
- ucee054 14y ago
  First, find actual data to back the assertion that low capital gains taxes back innovation. I think you'll find that it is in fact seed capital and small business loans that back innovation, and that these facilities are generally provided by government not the private sector. I think you'll find that what low capital gains taxes do is allow hedge fund managers to get a lower tax rate by reclassifying their income.
  - irreverentbits 14y ago
    ... so you're telling me to find data before extending data-less guesses in an attempt to refute my assertion? Seems legit.
paulhauggis 14y ago
It's crazy how so many people in this generation believe that getting rich is evil and wrong..but being forced to give up 60-80% of your earnings to a government that will most likely squander it is not. Don't worry though. When all of the rich leave, there will be nobody left to tax.
- jaggederest 14y ago
  Whatever you say, John Galt. Go it alone, you don't need those proles, and let us know how that treats you.
  - paulhauggis 14y ago
    Don't worry. I'm not in France and I will never open a business there if taxes are this high.
- oelmekki 14y ago
  Those numbers are totally wrong. First, "pigeon"s don't talk about 80% but 60%. And they're wrong about that too. Here is an economical review from the law (translated from french) : http://goo.gl/70xwI http://goo.gl/70xwI The tax is not 60%, but 40%, worst case scenario ; and can be as low as 20% if conditions are met (keeping the business a long time, reinvesting money in an other company). Also, the purpose was not to blame rich ones, it was to tax transaction incomes at the same level as work income. Not more.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  France has universal healthcare, tougher environmental regulations, and 5 weeks of paid vacation for all working people. I hardly call that a "squandering" of resources. Fighting an oil war in the desert is closer to that.
  - paulhauggis 14y ago
    "universal healthcare" Since when has a monopoly ever been a good thing? "tougher environmental regulations" France also based many of them on the idea that we have man-made global warming. "5 weeks of paid vacation for all working people" I would rather leave that up to companies and have 30%+ more of my taxes. "Fighting an oil war in the desert is closer to that." You gave me 3 simple examples. Every government in every country is inefficient. France somehow believes that those inefficiencies will go away by taking away more money from its citizens.
hnriot 14y ago
It's true that some people get rich by exploitation and other nefarious means, but there are also people that get rich by doing things, by inventing, by discovering, by building companies, by doing the very things that a country like France needs to compete. A country that already hampers any real chance of getting ahead in the world (for example maximum work hours and mandated holidays) needs as much help as it can get, so maybe keeping people that got rich inside of France is actually a good thing. Maybe that chip on your shoulder is holding you back in more ways than you know.
- yardie 14y ago
  > for example maximum work hours and mandated holidays Where are you getting this from? They have the same type of labor laws in the US and even in China (how it is enforced is up for debate). You agree to work a certain amount of hours (35-40), you go over the company pays more. And they can't make you agree to more than that. Holidays aren't mandatory, they are an entitlement. I may or may not work during Labor Day or Christmas. Most offices choose to shut down during holidays because, unless it is critical, with everyone else closed you it's almost impossible to get anything done.
  - zolbatar 14y ago
    I think what he is meaning by holiday is statutory vacation time; it's typical in Europe to get 5 weeks vacation time (I get 6).
    - simonh 14y ago
      I'm a conservative voting, free market believing Brit. I even work in the finance sector. But he american attitude to holidays appals me. I'm all for high productivity and commitment to work. I'm not even a fan of mandatory holiday allowances as I think that's should be up for negotiation. But you'll have to take my 25 day holiday allowance out of my cold, dead fingers. My kids get to grow up just once, and I'm absolutely going to be there to see it.
      - 14y ago

That's a myopic view of economics. How could it improve things to have the group with all the money leave, taking it with them?

ucee054 14y ago
They can be prevented from taking it with them. Try renouncing US citizenship; you'll have to pay a big penalty to the IRS to do so...
- fusiongyro 14y ago
  Yes, but people are starting to do it. People who get wealthy tend to care about their money a lot, and are very willing to do the math and see if the big penalty at departure is higher or lower than the sustained penalty of staying.
dscrd 14y ago
But aren't you just legitimizing a sort of blackmail culture when you suggest that the rich must be pampered or they will take all their toys and go away?

Cbasedlifeform 14y ago

The problem is if they take the young gifted entrepreneurs with them. I heard anecdotally that they were already leaving e.g. for London and that was before this latest tax increase.

stfu 14y ago
I truly hope that this is going to be the result of the French "situation". It would be once and for all great to have some more substantial evidence on how growth, innovation and consumption dramatically goes down, when governments go on a tax-the-wealthy witch hunt . Bernard Arnault should be hailed as an example, not a traitor, for leaving France and getting a Belgian citizenship. Postulating a Unified Europe by pushing the ongoing de-nationalization of the EU member countries is absolutely antithetic to the expectation that tax payers should feel obliged to pay taxes to their home country, and not switch to the one most beneficiary for them.
- eli_gottlieb 14y ago
  Postulating a Unified Europe by pushing the ongoing de-nationalization of the EU member countries is absolutely antithetic to the expectation that tax payers should feel obliged to pay taxes to their home country, and not switch to the one most beneficiary for them. Which is precisely why de-nationalizing Europe is such a bad idea.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

irreverentbits 14y ago

Yes, exactly. Disincentivizing innovation and the financial machine that backs it is an /excellent/ idea.

ucee054 14y ago
First, find actual data to back the assertion that low capital gains taxes back innovation. I think you'll find that it is in fact seed capital and small business loans that back innovation, and that these facilities are generally provided by government not the private sector. I think you'll find that what low capital gains taxes do is allow hedge fund managers to get a lower tax rate by reclassifying their income.
- irreverentbits 14y ago
  ... so you're telling me to find data before extending data-less guesses in an attempt to refute my assertion? Seems legit.

paulhauggis 14y ago

It's crazy how so many people in this generation believe that getting rich is evil and wrong..but being forced to give up 60-80% of your earnings to a government that will most likely squander it is not. Don't worry though. When all of the rich leave, there will be nobody left to tax.

jaggederest 14y ago
Whatever you say, John Galt. Go it alone, you don't need those proles, and let us know how that treats you.
- paulhauggis 14y ago
  Don't worry. I'm not in France and I will never open a business there if taxes are this high.
oelmekki 14y ago
Those numbers are totally wrong. First, "pigeon"s don't talk about 80% but 60%. And they're wrong about that too. Here is an economical review from the law (translated from french) : http://goo.gl/70xwI http://goo.gl/70xwI The tax is not 60%, but 40%, worst case scenario ; and can be as low as 20% if conditions are met (keeping the business a long time, reinvesting money in an other company). Also, the purpose was not to blame rich ones, it was to tax transaction incomes at the same level as work income. Not more.
michaelochurch 14y ago
France has universal healthcare, tougher environmental regulations, and 5 weeks of paid vacation for all working people. I hardly call that a "squandering" of resources. Fighting an oil war in the desert is closer to that.
- paulhauggis 14y ago
  "universal healthcare" Since when has a monopoly ever been a good thing? "tougher environmental regulations" France also based many of them on the idea that we have man-made global warming. "5 weeks of paid vacation for all working people" I would rather leave that up to companies and have 30%+ more of my taxes. "Fighting an oil war in the desert is closer to that." You gave me 3 simple examples. Every government in every country is inefficient. France somehow believes that those inefficiencies will go away by taking away more money from its citizens.

hnriot 14y ago

It's true that some people get rich by exploitation and other nefarious means, but there are also people that get rich by doing things, by inventing, by discovering, by building companies, by doing the very things that a country like France needs to compete. A country that already hampers any real chance of getting ahead in the world (for example maximum work hours and mandated holidays) needs as much help as it can get, so maybe keeping people that got rich inside of France is actually a good thing. Maybe that chip on your shoulder is holding you back in more ways than you know.

yardie 14y ago
> for example maximum work hours and mandated holidays Where are you getting this from? They have the same type of labor laws in the US and even in China (how it is enforced is up for debate). You agree to work a certain amount of hours (35-40), you go over the company pays more. And they can't make you agree to more than that. Holidays aren't mandatory, they are an entitlement. I may or may not work during Labor Day or Christmas. Most offices choose to shut down during holidays because, unless it is critical, with everyone else closed you it's almost impossible to get anything done.
- zolbatar 14y ago
  I think what he is meaning by holiday is statutory vacation time; it's typical in Europe to get 5 weeks vacation time (I get 6).
  - simonh 14y ago
    I'm a conservative voting, free market believing Brit. I even work in the finance sector. But he american attitude to holidays appals me. I'm all for high productivity and commitment to work. I'm not even a fan of mandatory holiday allowances as I think that's should be up for negotiation. But you'll have to take my 25 day holiday allowance out of my cold, dead fingers. My kids get to grow up just once, and I'm absolutely going to be there to see it.
    - 14y ago