4 ms·

Hepburn is poorly supported in some input methods, like on Windows. If you want to type kōen or whatever, you really have to work for that ō. It's better now on

Hepburn is poorly supported in some input methods, like on Windows. If you want to type kōen or whatever, you really have to work for that ō. It's better now on mobile devices and MacOS (what I'm using now): I just long-pressed o and picked ō from a pop-up.

adastra22 11mo ago
Is that part of Hepburn? It is not mentioned in the article, nor by most explainers that I’m familiar with.
- QuercusMax 11mo ago
  The article says the new style says that you can use either a macron or a doubled letter, but it's not clear if that's supported for keyboard input on various platforms.
  - kazinator 11mo ago
    But in the case of ō, you can only use a doubled letter if the underlying word is おお. If it is おう then you don't have a doubled letter you can use; you need "ou" and that's not Hepburn any more. It is "wāpuro rōmaji" (word processor romaji).
    - shiomiru 11mo ago
      "ou" is fine too, actually. See the proposal p. 14 (=16 in the PDF): https://www.bunka.go.jp/seisaku/bunkashingikai/sokai/pdf/94261201_01.pdf https://www.bunka.go.jp/seisaku/bunkashingikai/sokai/pdf/942... (To differentiate between the case where it's actually two vowels, you have to put an apostrophe inbetween; their example is 小唄 -> ko'uta.)
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- layer8 11mo ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepburn_romanization#Long_vowels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepburn_romanization#Long_vowe...
Etheryte 11mo ago
That's one aspect I really love about macOS. I'm from a small country so nearly no one makes hardware with our exact layout, but with macOS I can always just long press to fill in the gaps. I just wish all apps used native inputs, not some weird half-baked solution they built themselves.
- lostlogin 11mo ago
  > I just wish all apps used native inputs, not some weird half-baked solution they built themselves. I find this often with apps and websites, and I speak/write British English (or attempt to). Why effort is put into making a worse interface is baffling.
  - bschwindHN 11mo ago
    Same with image viewers on the web. Google, twitter, imgur, and others seem hell bent on making the shittiest possible zoom and pan implementations to look at images.
- Rendello 11mo ago
  I rarely miss Linux, but I liked being able to have compose keys, most of which were very logical and fast to type. Now on MacOS, I either have to know the option (alt) combination or long press, which makes my writing with accents way slower. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key
  - kps 11mo ago
    If you frequently write the same characters, it's straightforward to create your own keyboard layout that matches your usage, using https://software.sil.org/ukelele/ https://software.sil.org/ukelele/
  - vilasa 11mo ago
    My favorite Linux layout was US International + AltGr dead keys. Basically a US keyboard, but if you want an accented character, just press the AltGr+Accent key, then the letter. I got the same behavior on macOS by using https://github.com/carjorvaz/macos-us-altgr-intl/blob/master/us-altgr-intl.keylayout https://github.com/carjorvaz/macos-us-altgr-intl/blob/master...
bitwize 11mo ago
Compose o dash. Windows doesn't have an easy way to map in the compose key (usually ralt)? big if true, jesus christ microsoft
- Lammy 11mo ago
  https://github.com/ell1010/wincompose https://github.com/ell1010/wincompose is like the first thing I install on any new Windows machine.
- gpvos 11mo ago
  Nope. When on Windows I tend to use one of the US International or the Pseudo VT320 layout from https://keyboards.jargon-file.org/ https://keyboards.jargon-file.org/ .
- bryanlarsen 11mo ago
  Note: bitwize is talking about how to do it on Linux. Which is the best way in my biased opinion. Perhaps not the best mapping for people who use it regularly but is awesome for those who use it irregularly. We can usually guess how to do weird diacritics without having to look it up.
  - Lammy 11mo ago
    And when I can't think it up, I have a bookmark for my locale's upstream compose sequences file: https://github.com/X11Libre/mirror.fdo.libX11/blob/master/nls/en_US.UTF-8/Compose.pre https://github.com/X11Libre/mirror.fdo.libX11/blob/master/nl... and/or https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/lib/libx11/-/blob/master/nls/en_US.UTF-8/Compose.pre https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/lib/libx11/-/blob/master...
qingcharles 11mo ago
What's the best way to type Japanese on Windows? (I have a QWERTY keyboard) On mobile I just switch to the hiragana keyboard, but that obviously isn't a sane option on desktop unless I'm clicking all the characters with a mouse?
- kazinator 11mo ago
  I don't know now, but for the longest time, Google made a much better Japanese IME for Windows than Microsoft ("Google Japanese Input"). I started using it when running into reliability issues, like disappearing kanji dictionary, or frozen switching between roman and hiragana. Assuming Microsoft's Japanese IME is still a dumpster fire, and the Google one has not succumbed to Googleshitification, that would be a way to go. To enable the Microsoft IME there are some rituals to go through like adding the Japanese language and then a Japanese keyboard under that. It will download some materials, like fonts and dictionaries. A reboot is typically not required, I think, unless you make Japanese the primary language. Once you have the keyboard, LeftShift + LeftAlt chord goes among the input methods. Ctrl + CapsLock toggles hiragana/romaji input. I think these are the same for Google or MS input.
- junar 11mo ago
  Using the example from the top-level comment, you would install an IME, switch to hiragana mode, start typing "kouen" and convert to kanji when you see the right suggestion. It might sound complicated at first, but you can do it pretty fast once you get used to it. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/globalization/input/japanese-ime https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/globalization/input/japane...
- makeitdouble 11mo ago
  When it comes to input "best" is highly subjective, but with that said: Just adding Japanese support in the system language settings is fine. Standard Qwerty keyboards are well supported, you'll need to either check the key shortcut to switch between inputs or do it with the mouse if it's infrequent enough. People using it daily will tweak a lot more, have a straight to IME and straight out of IME key instead of the default switching pattern, potentially add more tweaks to always have half-width space and ponctuation whatever the mode they're in etc., but that's a rabbit-hole you'll be free to fall into. BTW the reverse works well enough: Windows has a specific mode to force US ANSI on JIS layouts and still use the additional japanese keys. Kinda fun they felt the need to leave that mode in.
johnea 11mo ago
Hepburn also allows the use of the double vowel, in this case: kooen
domenicd 11mo ago
It's terrible that Windows still has nothing good for this built-in. I use https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/powertoys/quick-accent https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/powertoys/quick-ac... which is at least first-party. It's still got a few bugs, but it's a big improvement. (The bugs I've experienced: it doesn't properly disable itself during video games, despite claiming to do so; sometimes the popup seem to come up when I swear I didn't press the shortcut keys; rarely, the popup gets stuck on screen and needs to be Alt+F4'ed.)

adastra22 11mo ago

Is that part of Hepburn? It is not mentioned in the article, nor by most explainers that I’m familiar with.

QuercusMax 11mo ago
The article says the new style says that you can use either a macron or a doubled letter, but it's not clear if that's supported for keyboard input on various platforms.
- kazinator 11mo ago
  But in the case of ō, you can only use a doubled letter if the underlying word is おお. If it is おう then you don't have a doubled letter you can use; you need "ou" and that's not Hepburn any more. It is "wāpuro rōmaji" (word processor romaji).
  - shiomiru 11mo ago
    "ou" is fine too, actually. See the proposal p. 14 (=16 in the PDF): https://www.bunka.go.jp/seisaku/bunkashingikai/sokai/pdf/94261201_01.pdf https://www.bunka.go.jp/seisaku/bunkashingikai/sokai/pdf/942... (To differentiate between the case where it's actually two vowels, you have to put an apostrophe inbetween; their example is 小唄 -> ko'uta.)
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
layer8 11mo ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepburn_romanization#Long_vowels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepburn_romanization#Long_vowe...

Etheryte 11mo ago

That's one aspect I really love about macOS. I'm from a small country so nearly no one makes hardware with our exact layout, but with macOS I can always just long press to fill in the gaps. I just wish all apps used native inputs, not some weird half-baked solution they built themselves.

lostlogin 11mo ago
> I just wish all apps used native inputs, not some weird half-baked solution they built themselves. I find this often with apps and websites, and I speak/write British English (or attempt to). Why effort is put into making a worse interface is baffling.
- bschwindHN 11mo ago
  Same with image viewers on the web. Google, twitter, imgur, and others seem hell bent on making the shittiest possible zoom and pan implementations to look at images.
Rendello 11mo ago
I rarely miss Linux, but I liked being able to have compose keys, most of which were very logical and fast to type. Now on MacOS, I either have to know the option (alt) combination or long press, which makes my writing with accents way slower. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key
- kps 11mo ago
  If you frequently write the same characters, it's straightforward to create your own keyboard layout that matches your usage, using https://software.sil.org/ukelele/ https://software.sil.org/ukelele/
- vilasa 11mo ago
  My favorite Linux layout was US International + AltGr dead keys. Basically a US keyboard, but if you want an accented character, just press the AltGr+Accent key, then the letter. I got the same behavior on macOS by using https://github.com/carjorvaz/macos-us-altgr-intl/blob/master/us-altgr-intl.keylayout https://github.com/carjorvaz/macos-us-altgr-intl/blob/master...

bitwize 11mo ago

Compose o dash. Windows doesn't have an easy way to map in the compose key (usually ralt)? big if true, jesus christ microsoft

Lammy 11mo ago
https://github.com/ell1010/wincompose https://github.com/ell1010/wincompose is like the first thing I install on any new Windows machine.
gpvos 11mo ago
Nope. When on Windows I tend to use one of the US International or the Pseudo VT320 layout from https://keyboards.jargon-file.org/ https://keyboards.jargon-file.org/ .
bryanlarsen 11mo ago
Note: bitwize is talking about how to do it on Linux. Which is the best way in my biased opinion. Perhaps not the best mapping for people who use it regularly but is awesome for those who use it irregularly. We can usually guess how to do weird diacritics without having to look it up.
- Lammy 11mo ago
  And when I can't think it up, I have a bookmark for my locale's upstream compose sequences file: https://github.com/X11Libre/mirror.fdo.libX11/blob/master/nls/en_US.UTF-8/Compose.pre https://github.com/X11Libre/mirror.fdo.libX11/blob/master/nl... and/or https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/lib/libx11/-/blob/master/nls/en_US.UTF-8/Compose.pre https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/lib/libx11/-/blob/master...

qingcharles 11mo ago

What's the best way to type Japanese on Windows? (I have a QWERTY keyboard) On mobile I just switch to the hiragana keyboard, but that obviously isn't a sane option on desktop unless I'm clicking all the characters with a mouse?

kazinator 11mo ago
I don't know now, but for the longest time, Google made a much better Japanese IME for Windows than Microsoft ("Google Japanese Input"). I started using it when running into reliability issues, like disappearing kanji dictionary, or frozen switching between roman and hiragana. Assuming Microsoft's Japanese IME is still a dumpster fire, and the Google one has not succumbed to Googleshitification, that would be a way to go. To enable the Microsoft IME there are some rituals to go through like adding the Japanese language and then a Japanese keyboard under that. It will download some materials, like fonts and dictionaries. A reboot is typically not required, I think, unless you make Japanese the primary language. Once you have the keyboard, LeftShift + LeftAlt chord goes among the input methods. Ctrl + CapsLock toggles hiragana/romaji input. I think these are the same for Google or MS input.
junar 11mo ago
Using the example from the top-level comment, you would install an IME, switch to hiragana mode, start typing "kouen" and convert to kanji when you see the right suggestion. It might sound complicated at first, but you can do it pretty fast once you get used to it. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/globalization/input/japanese-ime https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/globalization/input/japane...
makeitdouble 11mo ago
When it comes to input "best" is highly subjective, but with that said: Just adding Japanese support in the system language settings is fine. Standard Qwerty keyboards are well supported, you'll need to either check the key shortcut to switch between inputs or do it with the mouse if it's infrequent enough. People using it daily will tweak a lot more, have a straight to IME and straight out of IME key instead of the default switching pattern, potentially add more tweaks to always have half-width space and ponctuation whatever the mode they're in etc., but that's a rabbit-hole you'll be free to fall into. BTW the reverse works well enough: Windows has a specific mode to force US ANSI on JIS layouts and still use the additional japanese keys. Kinda fun they felt the need to leave that mode in.

johnea 11mo ago

Hepburn also allows the use of the double vowel, in this case: kooen

domenicd 11mo ago

It's terrible that Windows still has nothing good for this built-in. I use https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/powertoys/quick-accent https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/powertoys/quick-ac... which is at least first-party. It's still got a few bugs, but it's a big improvement. (The bugs I've experienced: it doesn't properly disable itself during video games, despite claiming to do so; sometimes the popup seem to come up when I swear I didn't press the shortcut keys; rarely, the popup gets stuck on screen and needs to be Alt+F4'ed.)