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I dont even think they employ close to 100 FTE devs actually working on Firefox at this point.

by hosteur 10mo ago

pseudalopex 10mo ago
Mozilla spent $260 million on software development in 2023.[1] How do you believe they spent it? Vivaldi employ 28 developers to produce an unstable Chromium fork and email program for comparison.[2] [1] https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2024/mozilla-fdn-2023-fs-final-short-1209.pdf https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2024/mozilla-fdn-202... [2] https://vivaldi.com/team/ https://vivaldi.com/team/
- hosteur 10mo ago
  Well, I do not believe $260 million went to Firefox development. I would be surprised if the majority of that went to other non-Firefox projects like: Various AI initiatives (Mozilla.ai, Orbit, etc.) Mozilla VPN Mozilla Monitor Pocket Firefox Relay Fakespot Mozilla Social Mozilla Hubs ... just to name a few.
  - glenstein 10mo ago
    I think you're probably about as dead wrong as it's possible to be on this front. First they ship millions of new LoC to Firefox on a monthly basis so the engineering efforts are open for all the world to see. Secondly, if more than half(!?!) was spent on, say, Pocket, or Fakespot, then you would see a rise and fall in spending coinciding with the onramp and closure of those programs over their lifetimes. But in reality we have seen a steady upward march in spending, and so the interpretation that passes the sanity check is that they fold these into their existing budget with the existing development capacity they have which is variously assigned to different projects, including(!!) Firefox, where again, their annual code output is monumental and rivals Google. Again I have to note the blizzard of contradictory accusations throughout this thread. According to one commenter the problem is they are biting off more than they can chew and need to scale back all of the excessive Firefox development they are doing (and I recall previous commenters speculating that 30+ million LoC was not evidence of their hard work but "bloat" that was excessive and that they probably could cut a lot of it out without losing functionality). But for you, the obvious problem is they're wasting all that capacity on side projects and not putting enough effort in the browser.
    - skywal_l 10mo ago
      > First they ship millions of new LoC to Firefox on a monthly basis so the engineering efforts are open for all the world to see. Who is they? You mean the thousands of unpaid developers?[0] [0]https://openhub.net/p/firefox/factoids https://openhub.net/p/firefox/factoids
  - pseudalopex 10mo ago
    Most of these projects are open source. Anyone can see how much more active Firefox development is. Mozilla.ai's featured projects sounded like things Firefox's AI features would use. Orbit was a Firefox extension. Firefox integrated its features. You considered this not Firefox development? Mozilla VPN and Mozilla Monitor are interfaces to other companies' services. And they are non Google revenue sources. Mozilla Social was a Mastodon instance. How much software development did you believe running a Mastodon instance required?
  - skywal_l 10mo ago
    You forgot CEO comp: 7.000.000 in 2022[0] [0]: https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2022/mozilla-fdn-990-ty22-public-disclosure.pdf https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2022/mozilla-fdn-990...
- glenstein 10mo ago
  Props for citing real numbers! I hope other people reading this thread are looking at your comment and understanding that this is how you make reality based comments. One tidbit I will add: that's more than they have ever spent on development historically, including after adjusting for inflation. IIRC it's about quadruple what they spent back when browsers were desktop only when they had their highest market share.

I dont even think they employ close to 100 FTE devs actually working on Firefox at this point.

by hosteur 10mo ago

I dont even think they employ close to 100 FTE devs actually working on Firefox at this point.

Mozilla spent $260 million on software development in 2023.[1] How do you believe they spent it? Vivaldi employ 28 developers to produce an unstable Chromium fork and email program for comparison.[2] [1] https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2024/mozilla-fdn-2023-fs-final-short-1209.pdf https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2024/mozilla-fdn-202... [2] https://vivaldi.com/team/ https://vivaldi.com/team/

hosteur 10mo ago
Well, I do not believe $260 million went to Firefox development. I would be surprised if the majority of that went to other non-Firefox projects like: Various AI initiatives (Mozilla.ai, Orbit, etc.) Mozilla VPN Mozilla Monitor Pocket Firefox Relay Fakespot Mozilla Social Mozilla Hubs ... just to name a few.
- glenstein 10mo ago
  I think you're probably about as dead wrong as it's possible to be on this front. First they ship millions of new LoC to Firefox on a monthly basis so the engineering efforts are open for all the world to see. Secondly, if more than half(!?!) was spent on, say, Pocket, or Fakespot, then you would see a rise and fall in spending coinciding with the onramp and closure of those programs over their lifetimes. But in reality we have seen a steady upward march in spending, and so the interpretation that passes the sanity check is that they fold these into their existing budget with the existing development capacity they have which is variously assigned to different projects, including(!!) Firefox, where again, their annual code output is monumental and rivals Google. Again I have to note the blizzard of contradictory accusations throughout this thread. According to one commenter the problem is they are biting off more than they can chew and need to scale back all of the excessive Firefox development they are doing (and I recall previous commenters speculating that 30+ million LoC was not evidence of their hard work but "bloat" that was excessive and that they probably could cut a lot of it out without losing functionality). But for you, the obvious problem is they're wasting all that capacity on side projects and not putting enough effort in the browser.
  - skywal_l 10mo ago
    > First they ship millions of new LoC to Firefox on a monthly basis so the engineering efforts are open for all the world to see. Who is they? You mean the thousands of unpaid developers?[0] [0]https://openhub.net/p/firefox/factoids https://openhub.net/p/firefox/factoids
- pseudalopex 10mo ago
  Most of these projects are open source. Anyone can see how much more active Firefox development is. Mozilla.ai's featured projects sounded like things Firefox's AI features would use. Orbit was a Firefox extension. Firefox integrated its features. You considered this not Firefox development? Mozilla VPN and Mozilla Monitor are interfaces to other companies' services. And they are non Google revenue sources. Mozilla Social was a Mastodon instance. How much software development did you believe running a Mastodon instance required?
- skywal_l 10mo ago
  You forgot CEO comp: 7.000.000 in 2022[0] [0]: https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2022/mozilla-fdn-990-ty22-public-disclosure.pdf https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2022/mozilla-fdn-990...
glenstein 10mo ago
Props for citing real numbers! I hope other people reading this thread are looking at your comment and understanding that this is how you make reality based comments. One tidbit I will add: that's more than they have ever spent on development historically, including after adjusting for inflation. IIRC it's about quadruple what they spent back when browsers were desktop only when they had their highest market share.