4 ms·

Any system needs a resource allocation algorithm. In capitalism it is easy and transparent: price, with the side effect of aligning society interests with thos

by nickpp 10mo ago

Any system needs a resource allocation algorithm. In capitalism it is easy and transparent: price, with the side effect of aligning society interests with those of the selfish individual. Of course the strange and heavily regulated US health-care system is obviously far far away from a free market. In socialism it's much more random: black markets, lists, lotteries, friends and network of connections. The side effect is that the most productive individuals are discouraged and punished, with the whole society lagging in effect. Case in point: the EU that started lagging the USA so much in growth that ended up having to beg for basic defense when a blood-thirsty neighbor came hungry for land.

trinix912 10mo ago
That's the difference between a corrupt and non-corrupt system rather than a capitalist vs socialist one. Nearly all European countries have an at least somewhat socialist healthcare system but in most you don't have to resort to those tactics.
- b3ing 10mo ago
  Humans have tendency to become corrupt the market / capitalism won’t correct itself, much people want to call it God/ perfect Regulation, anti-trust laws try to correct somethings but many politicians are against those things because they limit the profit that can be made, profit first, that’s the corruption
Hikikomori 10mo ago
Calling the american healthcare system easy and transparent is insane.
sdoering 10mo ago
Can't think of a socialist country, but invite you to visit the German system. Significantly less costly for society and objectively better for the people falling ill (or just having a baby born). And no, no lists, no lotteries or any of that other lies the conservative US media is spewing out to keep the masses pacified. I strongly believe, that if US citizens were to experience German healthcare for a year and having to go back to the US system, that there would be riots. Because I don’t think anyone with first hand experience of both systems would ever want to return to the US system.
- jack_tripper 10mo ago
  >And no, no lists There definitely are lists. You don't just get the surgery or therapy you need the next day. You get the next free slot in the list of people queuing at the hospital/practice that still has free slots. For example the first appointment you can get at my state funded therapist if you call today, will be in june. How is that "not a list"? Or like, if you call most public GPs in my neighbourhood, they'll all tell you they're full and don't have slots to take on any new patients and you should "try somewhere else". How is that "not a list"?
  - withinboredom 10mo ago
    There are multiple lists here in the NL. I called for a surgery and got put on the fast list (she said that if it weren’t urgent, it would be over a year wait). Your doc has a lot of influence on how urgent things are and how far you are willing to travel. I got in to see a therapist in a matter of weeks, because I was willing to travel out of the city; otherwise it will be months. The doc can see the lines and give you recommendations; all you have to do is ask to be seen sooner.
    - jack_tripper 10mo ago
      Doesn't work like that in Austria. Or my doctor's were unwilling to fake urgency to bypass the waiting system for me. Anyway, do you not realize the fault with the system in your logic? Because if everything becomes urgent in order to bypass queues, then nothing is urgent anymore. It doesn't fix the problem, you're just scamming the system to get ahead of the problem.
      - layer8 10mo ago
        I don’t think the parent implied lying about urgency.
        jack_tripper 10mo ago
        How else do you interpret his statement: "Your doc has a lot of influence on how urgent things are" If it's not lying then it's another word that ultimately still does the same outcome of putting you ahead of the rest.
KingMob 10mo ago
Theory: > In socialism it's much more random: black markets, lists, lotteries, friends and network of connections. The side effect is that the most productive individuals are discouraged and punished, with the whole society lagging in effect. Evidence: the vast majority of European countries who have socialized medicine and seem to be doing fine.
- jack_tripper 10mo ago
  >>In socialism it's much more random: black markets, lists, lotteries >Evidence: the vast majority of European countries who have socialized medicine and seem to be doing fine. That evidence of socialism working well, only works as long as there are enough resources to cover the needs of most people, basically some of the wealthier European countries. But when those resources become scarce due to poor economic conditions and/or mismanagement, then you'll see the endless queues, black margets and nepotism running the system. Evidence: former European communist countries who experienced both systems and where in some, nepotism to bypass lists still work to this day.
  - intended 10mo ago
    I think the 2024 Economics Nobel disproves this. It showed that nations with strong institutions create wealth - and it was a causative link they proved, not simply correlation.
    - jack_tripper 10mo ago
      How does that disprove what I said about abundance or lack thereof in socialized systems? Feels like an orthogonal issue. Socialized systems don't work without abundance. How you generate that abundance is orthogonal to socialism since even countries that are wealthy on paper suffer from shortages and long waiting times in public healthcare leading to a gray-market of using connections to get ahead or more private use.
      - layer8 10mo ago
lawtalkinghuman 10mo ago
When I'm unconscious in an ambulance, I'm definitely in a position to appreciate all that price transparency the free market has provided, so I can rationally weigh up all my options calmly and objectively while my organs are shutting down.
- nickpp 10mo ago
  The great majority of health care is not emergency health care. Actually, the fact that emergency health is so expensive is quite the incentive for preventive medicine. And for the rest, insurance is necessary. Like for house fires or floods: I get the insurance but I also check my wires and pipes regularly.

by nickpp 10mo ago

trinix912 10mo ago

That's the difference between a corrupt and non-corrupt system rather than a capitalist vs socialist one. Nearly all European countries have an at least somewhat socialist healthcare system but in most you don't have to resort to those tactics.

b3ing 10mo ago
Humans have tendency to become corrupt the market / capitalism won’t correct itself, much people want to call it God/ perfect Regulation, anti-trust laws try to correct somethings but many politicians are against those things because they limit the profit that can be made, profit first, that’s the corruption

Hikikomori 10mo ago

Calling the american healthcare system easy and transparent is insane.

sdoering 10mo ago

Can't think of a socialist country, but invite you to visit the German system. Significantly less costly for society and objectively better for the people falling ill (or just having a baby born). And no, no lists, no lotteries or any of that other lies the conservative US media is spewing out to keep the masses pacified. I strongly believe, that if US citizens were to experience German healthcare for a year and having to go back to the US system, that there would be riots. Because I don’t think anyone with first hand experience of both systems would ever want to return to the US system.

jack_tripper 10mo ago
>And no, no lists There definitely are lists. You don't just get the surgery or therapy you need the next day. You get the next free slot in the list of people queuing at the hospital/practice that still has free slots. For example the first appointment you can get at my state funded therapist if you call today, will be in june. How is that "not a list"? Or like, if you call most public GPs in my neighbourhood, they'll all tell you they're full and don't have slots to take on any new patients and you should "try somewhere else". How is that "not a list"?
- withinboredom 10mo ago
  There are multiple lists here in the NL. I called for a surgery and got put on the fast list (she said that if it weren’t urgent, it would be over a year wait). Your doc has a lot of influence on how urgent things are and how far you are willing to travel. I got in to see a therapist in a matter of weeks, because I was willing to travel out of the city; otherwise it will be months. The doc can see the lines and give you recommendations; all you have to do is ask to be seen sooner.
  - jack_tripper 10mo ago
    Doesn't work like that in Austria. Or my doctor's were unwilling to fake urgency to bypass the waiting system for me. Anyway, do you not realize the fault with the system in your logic? Because if everything becomes urgent in order to bypass queues, then nothing is urgent anymore. It doesn't fix the problem, you're just scamming the system to get ahead of the problem.
    - layer8 10mo ago
      I don’t think the parent implied lying about urgency.
      - jack_tripper 10mo ago
        How else do you interpret his statement: "Your doc has a lot of influence on how urgent things are" If it's not lying then it's another word that ultimately still does the same outcome of putting you ahead of the rest.

KingMob 10mo ago

Theory: > In socialism it's much more random: black markets, lists, lotteries, friends and network of connections. The side effect is that the most productive individuals are discouraged and punished, with the whole society lagging in effect. Evidence: the vast majority of European countries who have socialized medicine and seem to be doing fine.

jack_tripper 10mo ago
>>In socialism it's much more random: black markets, lists, lotteries >Evidence: the vast majority of European countries who have socialized medicine and seem to be doing fine. That evidence of socialism working well, only works as long as there are enough resources to cover the needs of most people, basically some of the wealthier European countries. But when those resources become scarce due to poor economic conditions and/or mismanagement, then you'll see the endless queues, black margets and nepotism running the system. Evidence: former European communist countries who experienced both systems and where in some, nepotism to bypass lists still work to this day.
- intended 10mo ago
  I think the 2024 Economics Nobel disproves this. It showed that nations with strong institutions create wealth - and it was a causative link they proved, not simply correlation.
  - jack_tripper 10mo ago
    How does that disprove what I said about abundance or lack thereof in socialized systems? Feels like an orthogonal issue. Socialized systems don't work without abundance. How you generate that abundance is orthogonal to socialism since even countries that are wealthy on paper suffer from shortages and long waiting times in public healthcare leading to a gray-market of using connections to get ahead or more private use.
    - layer8 10mo ago

lawtalkinghuman 10mo ago

When I'm unconscious in an ambulance, I'm definitely in a position to appreciate all that price transparency the free market has provided, so I can rationally weigh up all my options calmly and objectively while my organs are shutting down.

nickpp 10mo ago
The great majority of health care is not emergency health care. Actually, the fact that emergency health is so expensive is quite the incentive for preventive medicine. And for the rest, insurance is necessary. Like for house fires or floods: I get the insurance but I also check my wires and pipes regularly.