7 ms·

I mean the biggest issue is that “trucks” like F-150 are actually used because of US tax system that exempts such massive vehicles from emmision taxes because t

by omnimus 10mo ago

I mean the biggest issue is that “trucks” like F-150 are actually used because of US tax system that exempts such massive vehicles from emmision taxes because they are work trucks. They are pretty ineffective work vehicles but some people just love them as a symbol. That symbolism goes completely against electric/green vehicles. In other words - people who buy F-150 would never buy electric vehicle and people who are looking for electric truck for work wouldn't buy F-150.

formerly_proven 10mo ago
Ford actually makes a highly practical electric work vehicle. It's called E-Transit.
- omnimus 10mo ago
  Oh I agree! I didn't mean that they can't make a good work vehicle.
- sroerick 10mo ago
  I don't mean this personally against you, please don't take it as such, but the number of people in this thread who seem to have absolutely no idea what a work truck is used for is absolutely wild.
  - harpiaharpyja 10mo ago
    I'm one of those people. What is a work truck used for?
    - WalterBright 10mo ago
      When my neighbors hire a contractor to do some work, they show up in a work truck carrying supplies and tools. If their truck is broken, they are losing money every day. When I was working at Boeing, my lead engineer explained it to me this way. When the airplane is flying with a payload (note the word "pay" in payload), the airline is making money. When the airplane is sitting on the ground, it is losing money at a prodigious rate. The point of making an airliner is so the airline can make money, and that means minimizing time on the ground and maximizing time in the air carrying payload.
    - eucyclos 10mo ago
      I saw (and rode in) a lot of them in Alberta (Canada's Texas). Typical day for a work truck: -owner starts you up from the hotel parking lot -3-5 guys get in, you get your morning coffee via a drive through -You pick up a 'slip tank' of diesel (think a metal box with its own fuel pump that sits in the bed and holds about a ton of liquid when full). You might fill up your own tank at the same time, typically on the employer's dime. -you drive 1-3 hours over dirt roads and ice to get to the work site -you fill up the heavy equipment from your slip tank, then stand for about 10 hours - you might be idling for part of that depending on temperature - you drive another 1-3 hours back to the hotel parking lot. the owner plugs in your block heater so your fuel doesn't solidify overnight and you get ready to do it again the next day. Trucks look impractical when they're getting groceries in the city, but everything about them - the height, the large cabs, all of it - is highly optimized for a particular kind of job. It might not be as common a job as it was when this design rose to prominence, I have no insight as to that, but there is a reason for everything about them being the way it is.
      - vel0city 10mo ago
        Yes this is why every other driveway in the zero lot lines of DFW need 1-2 pickup trucks. Totally. This is way more extreme of usage than 99.99% of trucks made will ever see.
        eucyclos 10mo ago
        I wonder whether it's a nostalgia thing. People rode in these trucks and saw senior guys they admired owning them when they were young and on the make, and now they think that's the kind of truck successful people own even if it's not necessary for their own workday.
        tracker1 10mo ago
        I'd generally rather see a crew cab pickup on the road than an oversized SUV with a single, tiny person driving solo. There is a lot more utility to a pickup, and the SUV doesn't particularly do much better on fuel economy. That said, my SO has a large SUV, mostly in that I have trouble getting in and out of a low car now, and I'm no longer able to drive myself. My daughter has a smaller SUV/Truck (Hyundai Santa Cruz) with a smaller bed, that suits her needs nicely. For that matter, there are plenty of people here that would do well if they could import the Japanese sized smaller trucks, which have a lot of import restrictions. That said, I wouldn't want to drive such a thing offroad, up and over hills etc. regularly. I know a lot of Jeep/Pickup drivers that tow heavier things than you can with a car and go offroad to places you can't get to in a light vehicle regularly. Being functional for workloads as well is another benefit even if it isn't your job. That doesn't cover tradesmen who need the utility regularly and includes those who live in an apartment and can't otherwise just keep a large trailer parked at a random spot. And yeah, it might be a status symbol... so is a typical super car, large suv or things like a Range Rover. There's nothing wrong with it, if someone wants to have it and anyone who has a problem with that can fuck right off.
    - sroerick 10mo ago
      Other replies here have covered 'work truck' better than anything I'd come up with but I'll also add that some of the reasons people purchase trucks is: - To be able to help your friends move. - To be able to purchase supplies and move big things over long distances. - If you raise horses, you have to have a truck to pull your trailer. - If you own a tow behind or fifth wheel, you have to have a truck to pull it. - If you like canoeing or camping it is a lot easier if you have a truck. - If you live in a seriously rural area, or you enjoy hiking, you will need a truck or other vehicle in order to reach your home or many other destinations. I've gone up mountain roads in a Camry, and it's not a great experience. - To comfortably haul a family
      - vel0city 10mo ago
        Ive helped my friends move many times. We just rented a uhaul and did it in way fewer trips (one, generally). If we did the same in a regular pickup it would have been a lot more work and a lot more time just to "save" $50 or so. The vast majority of people don't have horses. The vast majority of people don't have a fifth wheel. I've tossed canoes on top of a focus hatchback. You don't need a truck to go canoeing. A canoe is like 50lbs, you don't need a few tons of towing capacity to carry a canoe. I've also gone camping in small cars. Get this, I've gone camping with just what I've carried in person for many miles! You don't need a few tons of towing to go camping. I comfortably carry multiple kids and a spouse in vehicles other than a pickup truck. In fact, other vehicles have generally been comfier and easier. In the minivan the little kids can easily get in their seats and buckle up on their own. In the truck I had as a rental, there was practically no chance they had to climb in on their own, much less open the doors. And yet trucks make up the majority of the most sold vehicles in the US.
        sroerick 10mo ago
        A lot of people do where I'm from, and I've bottomed out multiple sedans on rough roads outwhere I live. I totaled a vehicle because the rear axel broke for rough roads. I do all these things with my Camry, I'm pretty sick of having to park 5 miles down the trail, and I wish I had a truck.
      - 10mo ago
  - worthless-trash 10mo ago
    Perhaps this term is specific to americans, however to an Australian a 'work truck/ute' would be used for labour purposes and not for the family, for example hauling materials, transporting tools or as part of the business itself ? How do you (I assume american) define it ?
    - sroerick 10mo ago
      Yes, American. There's other better descriptions here, but generally speaking most contractors I know have a truck, which they use for work. That's really all that I mean. I mean we just call them trucks. Nobody would say "Hey, nice work truck!" People buy vehicles based on their needs. The F150 is sort of a hybrid between a work truck and a prestige family SUV like a Ford Explorer. If people are doing serious towing regularly, they will probably upgrade to a 250/350 class (3/4 ton or 1 ton). Plenty of people buy smaller trucks like the Ranger, which is basically like driving a crossover mini-SUV with a bed. People who are doing really serious transport may have a flatbed on an even bigger truck, but nobody uses those as family vehicles. I know people who have those little RHD mini trucks, which seems super useful to me. I don't know Utes, which by googling, basically looks like a midsize (Ford Ranger, Toyota Tacoma) with a flatbed. We don't really use those. Actually, it's kind of a market problem. Tons of people I know have expressed desire for a smaller truck like that little barebones Toyota Truck, but they don't make them here and we aren't allowed to import them.
  - bryanlarsen 10mo ago
    Not surprising, since Asians & Europeans get lots of work done without using monster American trucks. They use vans, pickups with drop sides, trailers, et cetera.
    - sroerick 10mo ago
      The closest big city to me is 150 miles away. I don't know anything about how general contracting is done in mainland China, (I bet they use trucks!) but other than that I'm really not sure any other Asian or European countries are facing the same logistical hurdles as Americans.
      - bryanlarsen 10mo ago
        Vans, drop side trucks and trailers have no problems traveling 150 miles. American trucks seem so horribly impractical since they're so crazy tall.
      - vel0city 10mo ago
        Imagine thinking vans can't travel 150 miles. Wild.
  - omnimus 10mo ago
    Truck is used for different kind of vehicles around the world. When you say truck i would bet many people imagine freight trucks, heavy machinery or medium sized "cube" freight trucks that are used for last mile deliveries to shops. They won't imagine american pickup to be a truck.
- userbinator 10mo ago
  That's a van, not a pickup truck.
  - ascorbic 10mo ago
    Yes, that's the point.
exabrial 10mo ago
> people just love them as a symbol This is an unfortunate trope that is oft repeated by those that live their life in constant upgrade cycles. The regular F-150 is a pinnacle of value engineering for Ford. It's infinitely repairable for owners. Look around on the highway, you will see hundreds of 15+ year old F150s on the road, and a few times a day I will see 25+ year old trucks on the road too. There are thousands of aftermarket parts for repair or customization. Owners are happy with them, and they recognize the truck as something they buy once and keep for a long time. If it is any kind of expression of self, its one of "I don't need to be consumeristic; I picked something simple that will last a lifetime."
- SoftTalker 10mo ago
  Also, a truck can be used like a car. But a car cannot be used like a truck. If you need to haul 4x8 sheets of plywood or drywall, dimensional lumber, piping, ladders, etc a truck (or work van) is pretty much it. If I could only afford one car it would be a truck.
  - NathanielK 10mo ago
    The old Dodge Grand Caravan with the fold flat sheets fits 4x8 sheets inside. The built in roofrack is also very ergonomic for ladders, canoes, etc. We have pickups and the minivan and I often prefer to haul with the van. Better fuel efficiency and lower load floor are nice.
    - SoftTalker 10mo ago
      Yeah minivans can be quite useful. A bit of a PITA to fold or remove seats, depending on the model, and typically can't tow much or really carry much weight but for the occasional large item they can work.
  - vel0city 10mo ago
    I (and practically most people) are rarely to never carrying stacks of full sheets of drywall. Having that be the basis of your needs for a car is absurd for most people. Even then, my minivan can pack some pretty long and pretty large things inside. Meanwhile it's got a better turning radius than most trucks, it has way better visibility, it's far less pedestrian unfriendly, it's got an easier loading height, sliding doors make it easier to fit the back five passengers in and out, the stuff I'm hauling doesn't have to risk getting wet or affected by the outside environment. Seems like the minivan is way superior than a bed for suburban life if one needs such a large vehicle. I've needed to move homes requiring the need for a 24' box truck more than I've needed to haul a stack of drywall around. Should I daily drive a uhaul truck?
jandrewrogers 10mo ago
The F-150 is valued because it is utilitarian and the platform is engineered for a pretty abusive duty cycle. Ford understands this. If you use trucks in anger, you start to appreciate this. The entry of Japanese automakers into the F-150 market is instructive. While the Japanese trucks looked similar, the early versions had a bad reputation for slowly coming apart under the typical workload and stresses people put on the F-150, which Ford had been refining for many decades. Those trucks often get used hard, and because people know an F-150 can take it they aren't afraid to use them hard. The median abuse significantly exceeded what the Japanese engineers anticipated. Japanese trucks are much better now but the attention to survivability is a big part of the F-150's enduring reputation. I've taken the Ford platform through situations where I've seen many other vehicles get destroyed. That's where the loyalty comes from and why it is a default choice for many. Most people aren't using them as hard as I have but it does provide a safety blanket.
vel0city 10mo ago
Not just emissions taxes, small businesses are incentivized to overbuy and get a bigger truck. GWVR>6,000lbs and a full bed gets a better first year tax benefit.
tracker1 10mo ago
From my limited checks (CA and AZ) pickup trucks aren't exempt from emissions testing or taxes. There are some partial exemptions in CA apparently, but that's a state with massively high taxes all around. Also, the most green vehicle is the one you keep operating over any new vehicle, electric or not. Truck owners tend to measure their ownership in decades.

by omnimus 10mo ago

formerly_proven 10mo ago

Ford actually makes a highly practical electric work vehicle. It's called E-Transit.

omnimus 10mo ago
Oh I agree! I didn't mean that they can't make a good work vehicle.
sroerick 10mo ago
I don't mean this personally against you, please don't take it as such, but the number of people in this thread who seem to have absolutely no idea what a work truck is used for is absolutely wild.
- harpiaharpyja 10mo ago
  I'm one of those people. What is a work truck used for?
  - WalterBright 10mo ago
    When my neighbors hire a contractor to do some work, they show up in a work truck carrying supplies and tools. If their truck is broken, they are losing money every day. When I was working at Boeing, my lead engineer explained it to me this way. When the airplane is flying with a payload (note the word "pay" in payload), the airline is making money. When the airplane is sitting on the ground, it is losing money at a prodigious rate. The point of making an airliner is so the airline can make money, and that means minimizing time on the ground and maximizing time in the air carrying payload.
  - eucyclos 10mo ago
    I saw (and rode in) a lot of them in Alberta (Canada's Texas). Typical day for a work truck: -owner starts you up from the hotel parking lot -3-5 guys get in, you get your morning coffee via a drive through -You pick up a 'slip tank' of diesel (think a metal box with its own fuel pump that sits in the bed and holds about a ton of liquid when full). You might fill up your own tank at the same time, typically on the employer's dime. -you drive 1-3 hours over dirt roads and ice to get to the work site -you fill up the heavy equipment from your slip tank, then stand for about 10 hours - you might be idling for part of that depending on temperature - you drive another 1-3 hours back to the hotel parking lot. the owner plugs in your block heater so your fuel doesn't solidify overnight and you get ready to do it again the next day. Trucks look impractical when they're getting groceries in the city, but everything about them - the height, the large cabs, all of it - is highly optimized for a particular kind of job. It might not be as common a job as it was when this design rose to prominence, I have no insight as to that, but there is a reason for everything about them being the way it is.
    - vel0city 10mo ago
      Yes this is why every other driveway in the zero lot lines of DFW need 1-2 pickup trucks. Totally. This is way more extreme of usage than 99.99% of trucks made will ever see.
      - eucyclos 10mo ago
        I wonder whether it's a nostalgia thing. People rode in these trucks and saw senior guys they admired owning them when they were young and on the make, and now they think that's the kind of truck successful people own even if it's not necessary for their own workday.
      - tracker1 10mo ago
        I'd generally rather see a crew cab pickup on the road than an oversized SUV with a single, tiny person driving solo. There is a lot more utility to a pickup, and the SUV doesn't particularly do much better on fuel economy. That said, my SO has a large SUV, mostly in that I have trouble getting in and out of a low car now, and I'm no longer able to drive myself. My daughter has a smaller SUV/Truck (Hyundai Santa Cruz) with a smaller bed, that suits her needs nicely. For that matter, there are plenty of people here that would do well if they could import the Japanese sized smaller trucks, which have a lot of import restrictions. That said, I wouldn't want to drive such a thing offroad, up and over hills etc. regularly. I know a lot of Jeep/Pickup drivers that tow heavier things than you can with a car and go offroad to places you can't get to in a light vehicle regularly. Being functional for workloads as well is another benefit even if it isn't your job. That doesn't cover tradesmen who need the utility regularly and includes those who live in an apartment and can't otherwise just keep a large trailer parked at a random spot. And yeah, it might be a status symbol... so is a typical super car, large suv or things like a Range Rover. There's nothing wrong with it, if someone wants to have it and anyone who has a problem with that can fuck right off.
  - sroerick 10mo ago
    Other replies here have covered 'work truck' better than anything I'd come up with but I'll also add that some of the reasons people purchase trucks is: - To be able to help your friends move. - To be able to purchase supplies and move big things over long distances. - If you raise horses, you have to have a truck to pull your trailer. - If you own a tow behind or fifth wheel, you have to have a truck to pull it. - If you like canoeing or camping it is a lot easier if you have a truck. - If you live in a seriously rural area, or you enjoy hiking, you will need a truck or other vehicle in order to reach your home or many other destinations. I've gone up mountain roads in a Camry, and it's not a great experience. - To comfortably haul a family
    - vel0city 10mo ago
      Ive helped my friends move many times. We just rented a uhaul and did it in way fewer trips (one, generally). If we did the same in a regular pickup it would have been a lot more work and a lot more time just to "save" $50 or so. The vast majority of people don't have horses. The vast majority of people don't have a fifth wheel. I've tossed canoes on top of a focus hatchback. You don't need a truck to go canoeing. A canoe is like 50lbs, you don't need a few tons of towing capacity to carry a canoe. I've also gone camping in small cars. Get this, I've gone camping with just what I've carried in person for many miles! You don't need a few tons of towing to go camping. I comfortably carry multiple kids and a spouse in vehicles other than a pickup truck. In fact, other vehicles have generally been comfier and easier. In the minivan the little kids can easily get in their seats and buckle up on their own. In the truck I had as a rental, there was practically no chance they had to climb in on their own, much less open the doors. And yet trucks make up the majority of the most sold vehicles in the US.
      - sroerick 10mo ago
        A lot of people do where I'm from, and I've bottomed out multiple sedans on rough roads outwhere I live. I totaled a vehicle because the rear axel broke for rough roads. I do all these things with my Camry, I'm pretty sick of having to park 5 miles down the trail, and I wish I had a truck.
    - 10mo ago
- worthless-trash 10mo ago
  Perhaps this term is specific to americans, however to an Australian a 'work truck/ute' would be used for labour purposes and not for the family, for example hauling materials, transporting tools or as part of the business itself ? How do you (I assume american) define it ?
  - sroerick 10mo ago
    Yes, American. There's other better descriptions here, but generally speaking most contractors I know have a truck, which they use for work. That's really all that I mean. I mean we just call them trucks. Nobody would say "Hey, nice work truck!" People buy vehicles based on their needs. The F150 is sort of a hybrid between a work truck and a prestige family SUV like a Ford Explorer. If people are doing serious towing regularly, they will probably upgrade to a 250/350 class (3/4 ton or 1 ton). Plenty of people buy smaller trucks like the Ranger, which is basically like driving a crossover mini-SUV with a bed. People who are doing really serious transport may have a flatbed on an even bigger truck, but nobody uses those as family vehicles. I know people who have those little RHD mini trucks, which seems super useful to me. I don't know Utes, which by googling, basically looks like a midsize (Ford Ranger, Toyota Tacoma) with a flatbed. We don't really use those. Actually, it's kind of a market problem. Tons of people I know have expressed desire for a smaller truck like that little barebones Toyota Truck, but they don't make them here and we aren't allowed to import them.
- bryanlarsen 10mo ago
  Not surprising, since Asians & Europeans get lots of work done without using monster American trucks. They use vans, pickups with drop sides, trailers, et cetera.
  - sroerick 10mo ago
    The closest big city to me is 150 miles away. I don't know anything about how general contracting is done in mainland China, (I bet they use trucks!) but other than that I'm really not sure any other Asian or European countries are facing the same logistical hurdles as Americans.
    - bryanlarsen 10mo ago
      Vans, drop side trucks and trailers have no problems traveling 150 miles. American trucks seem so horribly impractical since they're so crazy tall.
    - vel0city 10mo ago
      Imagine thinking vans can't travel 150 miles. Wild.
- omnimus 10mo ago
  Truck is used for different kind of vehicles around the world. When you say truck i would bet many people imagine freight trucks, heavy machinery or medium sized "cube" freight trucks that are used for last mile deliveries to shops. They won't imagine american pickup to be a truck.
userbinator 10mo ago
That's a van, not a pickup truck.
- ascorbic 10mo ago
  Yes, that's the point.

exabrial 10mo ago

> people just love them as a symbol This is an unfortunate trope that is oft repeated by those that live their life in constant upgrade cycles. The regular F-150 is a pinnacle of value engineering for Ford. It's infinitely repairable for owners. Look around on the highway, you will see hundreds of 15+ year old F150s on the road, and a few times a day I will see 25+ year old trucks on the road too. There are thousands of aftermarket parts for repair or customization. Owners are happy with them, and they recognize the truck as something they buy once and keep for a long time. If it is any kind of expression of self, its one of "I don't need to be consumeristic; I picked something simple that will last a lifetime."

SoftTalker 10mo ago
Also, a truck can be used like a car. But a car cannot be used like a truck. If you need to haul 4x8 sheets of plywood or drywall, dimensional lumber, piping, ladders, etc a truck (or work van) is pretty much it. If I could only afford one car it would be a truck.
- NathanielK 10mo ago
  The old Dodge Grand Caravan with the fold flat sheets fits 4x8 sheets inside. The built in roofrack is also very ergonomic for ladders, canoes, etc. We have pickups and the minivan and I often prefer to haul with the van. Better fuel efficiency and lower load floor are nice.
  - SoftTalker 10mo ago
    Yeah minivans can be quite useful. A bit of a PITA to fold or remove seats, depending on the model, and typically can't tow much or really carry much weight but for the occasional large item they can work.
- vel0city 10mo ago
  I (and practically most people) are rarely to never carrying stacks of full sheets of drywall. Having that be the basis of your needs for a car is absurd for most people. Even then, my minivan can pack some pretty long and pretty large things inside. Meanwhile it's got a better turning radius than most trucks, it has way better visibility, it's far less pedestrian unfriendly, it's got an easier loading height, sliding doors make it easier to fit the back five passengers in and out, the stuff I'm hauling doesn't have to risk getting wet or affected by the outside environment. Seems like the minivan is way superior than a bed for suburban life if one needs such a large vehicle. I've needed to move homes requiring the need for a 24' box truck more than I've needed to haul a stack of drywall around. Should I daily drive a uhaul truck?

jandrewrogers 10mo ago

The F-150 is valued because it is utilitarian and the platform is engineered for a pretty abusive duty cycle. Ford understands this. If you use trucks in anger, you start to appreciate this. The entry of Japanese automakers into the F-150 market is instructive. While the Japanese trucks looked similar, the early versions had a bad reputation for slowly coming apart under the typical workload and stresses people put on the F-150, which Ford had been refining for many decades. Those trucks often get used hard, and because people know an F-150 can take it they aren't afraid to use them hard. The median abuse significantly exceeded what the Japanese engineers anticipated. Japanese trucks are much better now but the attention to survivability is a big part of the F-150's enduring reputation. I've taken the Ford platform through situations where I've seen many other vehicles get destroyed. That's where the loyalty comes from and why it is a default choice for many. Most people aren't using them as hard as I have but it does provide a safety blanket.

vel0city 10mo ago

Not just emissions taxes, small businesses are incentivized to overbuy and get a bigger truck. GWVR>6,000lbs and a full bed gets a better first year tax benefit.

tracker1 10mo ago

From my limited checks (CA and AZ) pickup trucks aren't exempt from emissions testing or taxes. There are some partial exemptions in CA apparently, but that's a state with massively high taxes all around. Also, the most green vehicle is the one you keep operating over any new vehicle, electric or not. Truck owners tend to measure their ownership in decades.