5 ms·

I think the bigger issue is parts availability over the repairability issue... from what I understand, these have been quite reliable but parts for Ford's EVs h

by tracker1 11mo ago

I think the bigger issue is parts availability over the repairability issue... from what I understand, these have been quite reliable but parts for Ford's EVs have been backordered as much as months, where having a "work truck" down for months is an intolerable position. The cost is also kind of crazy between inflated factory and dealer pricing as much as $20k over sticker price. Yeah, there was some early demand, but over-charging really cooled that and the demand overall. I'm with you on some of the interior features, they're cool, but the overall inflated price is just too much. On the flip side, the Chevy "Work Truck" is kinda too far the other direction imo. Similar on the more complex exterior, though I actually like it, it's not practical for its' prescibed purpose. If Ford could create a stripped down EV equivalent to Chevy's "Work Truck" at even 50% higher cost, I think it would do very well. They're very good for in-city use in terms of range on a charge, it's definitely good enough for most general tradecraft use, but the bloat and pricing really drag it down. Much like most cars in general these days. Pretty much the only interesting new car I've seen this year was the Hundai Palasade, which IMO was just a good value for what it is. Kind of disappointing to see Nissan drop the Titan line. While I'd prefer to buy American brands, the fact that is that I don't think they deliver on overall value or reliability as well as competing brands. And it gets muddied further with foreign brands with US assembly and American brands now owned or otherwise operated or significantly built outside the US.

omnimus 11mo ago
I mean the biggest issue is that “trucks” like F-150 are actually used because of US tax system that exempts such massive vehicles from emmision taxes because they are work trucks. They are pretty ineffective work vehicles but some people just love them as a symbol. That symbolism goes completely against electric/green vehicles. In other words - people who buy F-150 would never buy electric vehicle and people who are looking for electric truck for work wouldn't buy F-150.
- formerly_proven 11mo ago
  Ford actually makes a highly practical electric work vehicle. It's called E-Transit.
  - omnimus 11mo ago
    Oh I agree! I didn't mean that they can't make a good work vehicle.
  - sroerick 11mo ago
    I don't mean this personally against you, please don't take it as such, but the number of people in this thread who seem to have absolutely no idea what a work truck is used for is absolutely wild.
    - harpiaharpyja 11mo ago
      I'm one of those people. What is a work truck used for?
      - WalterBright 11mo ago
        When my neighbors hire a contractor to do some work, they show up in a work truck carrying supplies and tools. If their truck is broken, they are losing money every day. When I was working at Boeing, my lead engineer explained it to me this way. When the airplane is flying with a payload (note the word "pay" in payload), the airline is making money. When the airplane is sitting on the ground, it is losing money at a prodigious rate. The point of making an airliner is so the airline can make money, and that means minimizing time on the ground and maximizing time in the air carrying payload.
      - eucyclos 11mo ago
        I saw (and rode in) a lot of them in Alberta (Canada's Texas). Typical day for a work truck: -owner starts you up from the hotel parking lot -3-5 guys get in, you get your morning coffee via a drive through -You pick up a 'slip tank' of diesel (think a metal box with its own fuel pump that sits in the bed and holds about a ton of liquid when full). You might fill up your own tank at the same time, typically on the employer's dime. -you drive 1-3 hours over dirt roads and ice to get to the work site -you fill up the heavy equipment from your slip tank, then stand for about 10 hours - you might be idling for part of that depending on temperature - you drive another 1-3 hours back to the hotel parking lot. the owner plugs in your block heater so your fuel doesn't solidify overnight and you get ready to do it again the next day. Trucks look impractical when they're getting groceries in the city, but everything about them - the height, the large cabs, all of it - is highly optimized for a particular kind of job. It might not be as common a job as it was when this design rose to prominence, I have no insight as to that, but there is a reason for everything about them being the way it is.
- exabrial 11mo ago
  > people just love them as a symbol This is an unfortunate trope that is oft repeated by those that live their life in constant upgrade cycles. The regular F-150 is a pinnacle of value engineering for Ford. It's infinitely repairable for owners. Look around on the highway, you will see hundreds of 15+ year old F150s on the road, and a few times a day I will see 25+ year old trucks on the road too. There are thousands of aftermarket parts for repair or customization. Owners are happy with them, and they recognize the truck as something they buy once and keep for a long time. If it is any kind of expression of self, its one of "I don't need to be consumeristic; I picked something simple that will last a lifetime."
  - SoftTalker 11mo ago
    Also, a truck can be used like a car. But a car cannot be used like a truck. If you need to haul 4x8 sheets of plywood or drywall, dimensional lumber, piping, ladders, etc a truck (or work van) is pretty much it. If I could only afford one car it would be a truck.
    - NathanielK 11mo ago
      The old Dodge Grand Caravan with the fold flat sheets fits 4x8 sheets inside. The built in roofrack is also very ergonomic for ladders, canoes, etc. We have pickups and the minivan and I often prefer to haul with the van. Better fuel efficiency and lower load floor are nice.
      - SoftTalker 11mo ago
        Yeah minivans can be quite useful. A bit of a PITA to fold or remove seats, depending on the model, and typically can't tow much or really carry much weight but for the occasional large item they can work.
    - vel0city 11mo ago
      I (and practically most people) are rarely to never carrying stacks of full sheets of drywall. Having that be the basis of your needs for a car is absurd for most people. Even then, my minivan can pack some pretty long and pretty large things inside. Meanwhile it's got a better turning radius than most trucks, it has way better visibility, it's far less pedestrian unfriendly, it's got an easier loading height, sliding doors make it easier to fit the back five passengers in and out, the stuff I'm hauling doesn't have to risk getting wet or affected by the outside environment. Seems like the minivan is way superior than a bed for suburban life if one needs such a large vehicle. I've needed to move homes requiring the need for a 24' box truck more than I've needed to haul a stack of drywall around. Should I daily drive a uhaul truck?
- jandrewrogers 11mo ago
  The F-150 is valued because it is utilitarian and the platform is engineered for a pretty abusive duty cycle. Ford understands this. If you use trucks in anger, you start to appreciate this. The entry of Japanese automakers into the F-150 market is instructive. While the Japanese trucks looked similar, the early versions had a bad reputation for slowly coming apart under the typical workload and stresses people put on the F-150, which Ford had been refining for many decades. Those trucks often get used hard, and because people know an F-150 can take it they aren't afraid to use them hard. The median abuse significantly exceeded what the Japanese engineers anticipated. Japanese trucks are much better now but the attention to survivability is a big part of the F-150's enduring reputation. I've taken the Ford platform through situations where I've seen many other vehicles get destroyed. That's where the loyalty comes from and why it is a default choice for many. Most people aren't using them as hard as I have but it does provide a safety blanket.
- vel0city 11mo ago
  Not just emissions taxes, small businesses are incentivized to overbuy and get a bigger truck. GWVR>6,000lbs and a full bed gets a better first year tax benefit.
- tracker1 11mo ago
  From my limited checks (CA and AZ) pickup trucks aren't exempt from emissions testing or taxes. There are some partial exemptions in CA apparently, but that's a state with massively high taxes all around. Also, the most green vehicle is the one you keep operating over any new vehicle, electric or not. Truck owners tend to measure their ownership in decades.
rootusrootus 11mo ago
> parts for Ford's EVs have been backordered The part with the worst availability is the godforsaken shifter, which happens to be shared with the ICE F150s.

omnimus 11mo ago

I mean the biggest issue is that “trucks” like F-150 are actually used because of US tax system that exempts such massive vehicles from emmision taxes because they are work trucks. They are pretty ineffective work vehicles but some people just love them as a symbol. That symbolism goes completely against electric/green vehicles. In other words - people who buy F-150 would never buy electric vehicle and people who are looking for electric truck for work wouldn't buy F-150.

formerly_proven 11mo ago
Ford actually makes a highly practical electric work vehicle. It's called E-Transit.
- omnimus 11mo ago
  Oh I agree! I didn't mean that they can't make a good work vehicle.
- sroerick 11mo ago
  I don't mean this personally against you, please don't take it as such, but the number of people in this thread who seem to have absolutely no idea what a work truck is used for is absolutely wild.
  - harpiaharpyja 11mo ago
    I'm one of those people. What is a work truck used for?
    - WalterBright 11mo ago
      When my neighbors hire a contractor to do some work, they show up in a work truck carrying supplies and tools. If their truck is broken, they are losing money every day. When I was working at Boeing, my lead engineer explained it to me this way. When the airplane is flying with a payload (note the word "pay" in payload), the airline is making money. When the airplane is sitting on the ground, it is losing money at a prodigious rate. The point of making an airliner is so the airline can make money, and that means minimizing time on the ground and maximizing time in the air carrying payload.
    - eucyclos 11mo ago
      I saw (and rode in) a lot of them in Alberta (Canada's Texas). Typical day for a work truck: -owner starts you up from the hotel parking lot -3-5 guys get in, you get your morning coffee via a drive through -You pick up a 'slip tank' of diesel (think a metal box with its own fuel pump that sits in the bed and holds about a ton of liquid when full). You might fill up your own tank at the same time, typically on the employer's dime. -you drive 1-3 hours over dirt roads and ice to get to the work site -you fill up the heavy equipment from your slip tank, then stand for about 10 hours - you might be idling for part of that depending on temperature - you drive another 1-3 hours back to the hotel parking lot. the owner plugs in your block heater so your fuel doesn't solidify overnight and you get ready to do it again the next day. Trucks look impractical when they're getting groceries in the city, but everything about them - the height, the large cabs, all of it - is highly optimized for a particular kind of job. It might not be as common a job as it was when this design rose to prominence, I have no insight as to that, but there is a reason for everything about them being the way it is.
exabrial 11mo ago
> people just love them as a symbol This is an unfortunate trope that is oft repeated by those that live their life in constant upgrade cycles. The regular F-150 is a pinnacle of value engineering for Ford. It's infinitely repairable for owners. Look around on the highway, you will see hundreds of 15+ year old F150s on the road, and a few times a day I will see 25+ year old trucks on the road too. There are thousands of aftermarket parts for repair or customization. Owners are happy with them, and they recognize the truck as something they buy once and keep for a long time. If it is any kind of expression of self, its one of "I don't need to be consumeristic; I picked something simple that will last a lifetime."
- SoftTalker 11mo ago
  Also, a truck can be used like a car. But a car cannot be used like a truck. If you need to haul 4x8 sheets of plywood or drywall, dimensional lumber, piping, ladders, etc a truck (or work van) is pretty much it. If I could only afford one car it would be a truck.
  - NathanielK 11mo ago
    The old Dodge Grand Caravan with the fold flat sheets fits 4x8 sheets inside. The built in roofrack is also very ergonomic for ladders, canoes, etc. We have pickups and the minivan and I often prefer to haul with the van. Better fuel efficiency and lower load floor are nice.
    - SoftTalker 11mo ago
      Yeah minivans can be quite useful. A bit of a PITA to fold or remove seats, depending on the model, and typically can't tow much or really carry much weight but for the occasional large item they can work.
  - vel0city 11mo ago
    I (and practically most people) are rarely to never carrying stacks of full sheets of drywall. Having that be the basis of your needs for a car is absurd for most people. Even then, my minivan can pack some pretty long and pretty large things inside. Meanwhile it's got a better turning radius than most trucks, it has way better visibility, it's far less pedestrian unfriendly, it's got an easier loading height, sliding doors make it easier to fit the back five passengers in and out, the stuff I'm hauling doesn't have to risk getting wet or affected by the outside environment. Seems like the minivan is way superior than a bed for suburban life if one needs such a large vehicle. I've needed to move homes requiring the need for a 24' box truck more than I've needed to haul a stack of drywall around. Should I daily drive a uhaul truck?
jandrewrogers 11mo ago
The F-150 is valued because it is utilitarian and the platform is engineered for a pretty abusive duty cycle. Ford understands this. If you use trucks in anger, you start to appreciate this. The entry of Japanese automakers into the F-150 market is instructive. While the Japanese trucks looked similar, the early versions had a bad reputation for slowly coming apart under the typical workload and stresses people put on the F-150, which Ford had been refining for many decades. Those trucks often get used hard, and because people know an F-150 can take it they aren't afraid to use them hard. The median abuse significantly exceeded what the Japanese engineers anticipated. Japanese trucks are much better now but the attention to survivability is a big part of the F-150's enduring reputation. I've taken the Ford platform through situations where I've seen many other vehicles get destroyed. That's where the loyalty comes from and why it is a default choice for many. Most people aren't using them as hard as I have but it does provide a safety blanket.
vel0city 11mo ago
Not just emissions taxes, small businesses are incentivized to overbuy and get a bigger truck. GWVR>6,000lbs and a full bed gets a better first year tax benefit.
tracker1 11mo ago
From my limited checks (CA and AZ) pickup trucks aren't exempt from emissions testing or taxes. There are some partial exemptions in CA apparently, but that's a state with massively high taxes all around. Also, the most green vehicle is the one you keep operating over any new vehicle, electric or not. Truck owners tend to measure their ownership in decades.

rootusrootus 11mo ago

> parts for Ford's EVs have been backordered The part with the worst availability is the godforsaken shifter, which happens to be shared with the ICE F150s.