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> And you end up with terrible outcomes like collapsing literacy rates through the prevention of teaching phonics, which leads to parents opting out of public e

by csb6 10mo ago

> And you end up with terrible outcomes like collapsing literacy rates through the prevention of teaching phonics, which leads to parents opting out of public education entirely. What is your evidence that teachers’ unions are causing these issues and not state/federal education policy? Do teachers’ unions have a big role in developing curriculums or setting educational policy? It seems like state legislatures and superintendents have more to do with that.

Aurornis 10mo ago
Several Teachers' Unions publicly oppose phonics curriculum as part of a larger goal to shift curriculum choosing power to the teachers unions. If you want evidence, look to the Teachers' Unions own efforts to oppose phonics education: https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/why-some-teachers-unions-oppose-science-of-reading-legislation/2023/03 https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/why-some-teachers-u...
- jfindper 10mo ago
  >If you want evidence, look to the Teachers' Unions own efforts to oppose phonics education: This does not read like an "effort to oppose phonics education". In fact, I did not see one mention of one single teacher who is opposed to phonics. The complaints are about implementation timelines, continuing education requirements, potential over-stepping of policy-makers re: teacher autonomy in the classroom, etc. >“To the extent that these laws remove teacher choice from certain decisions about curriculum and pedagogy and instructional style, it’s not at all a surprise that you’d see unions be in opposition to those, even if they support the arguments behind the science of reading,” said Melissa Arnold Lyon, an assistant professor of public policy at the University at Albany. >"“That’s establishing a precedent that is really dangerous and really could open up schools and teachers to all kinds of litigation, and all kinds of conflict and problems,” said Scott DiMauro, the president of the Ohio Education Association. “You’ve got to always be cautious about micromanaging decisions that ought to be made at the local level.”" >“That raises a lot of academic freedom questions for us, that raises a lot of questions about being able to differentiate based on student need,” said Justin Killian, an education issues specialist at Education Minnesota." >District leaders need time to create new instructional plans, money for new curriculum materials, and systems in place for coaching and supporting teachers—provisions these laws don’t always include, Woulfin said. You are confusing "against the legislation as it is written" with "against teaching phonics".
  - tetromino_ 10mo ago
    You see those complaints as reasonable? I would have wanted the teachers, instead of complaining, to start by apologizing to their current and former students: "We taught you badly, we mangled many of your peers' ability to read, we wasted your time and failed you - we are so sorry! We had good intentions but we didn't know better, we were ordered to follow a plan, and we didn't bother to stop and think if what we were doing made sense." But instead of acknowledging that they had been setting up children for failure and taking immediate action to improve things, they are dragging feet and complaining about "district leaders needing time to make instructional plans". As if their school and district are unique snowflakes, and nobody else in the country had published good enough plans already.
    - jfindper 10mo ago
      >You see those complaints as reasonable? My point is that these aren't "We are against teaching phonics" complaints, like the parent poster asserted. I don't agree with the rest of your comment really, either, but it doesn't have much to do with the conversation.
- csb6 10mo ago
  Seems like the unions have a lot of valid concerns about how the measures in those bills will be implemented and how/if new materials/training will be provided for teachers. It also seems like legislators are mostly ignoring the unions and passing the laws anyways, so not sure how unions are gaining power over curriculums in any way. If teachers’ unions had any significant leverage on legislatures I would think teacher salaries would be higher, which other unions (e.g. dockworkers) are successful at doing.

by csb6 10mo ago

Aurornis 10mo ago

Several Teachers' Unions publicly oppose phonics curriculum as part of a larger goal to shift curriculum choosing power to the teachers unions. If you want evidence, look to the Teachers' Unions own efforts to oppose phonics education: https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/why-some-teachers-unions-oppose-science-of-reading-legislation/2023/03 https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/why-some-teachers-u...

jfindper 10mo ago
>If you want evidence, look to the Teachers' Unions own efforts to oppose phonics education: This does not read like an "effort to oppose phonics education". In fact, I did not see one mention of one single teacher who is opposed to phonics. The complaints are about implementation timelines, continuing education requirements, potential over-stepping of policy-makers re: teacher autonomy in the classroom, etc. >“To the extent that these laws remove teacher choice from certain decisions about curriculum and pedagogy and instructional style, it’s not at all a surprise that you’d see unions be in opposition to those, even if they support the arguments behind the science of reading,” said Melissa Arnold Lyon, an assistant professor of public policy at the University at Albany. >"“That’s establishing a precedent that is really dangerous and really could open up schools and teachers to all kinds of litigation, and all kinds of conflict and problems,” said Scott DiMauro, the president of the Ohio Education Association. “You’ve got to always be cautious about micromanaging decisions that ought to be made at the local level.”" >“That raises a lot of academic freedom questions for us, that raises a lot of questions about being able to differentiate based on student need,” said Justin Killian, an education issues specialist at Education Minnesota." >District leaders need time to create new instructional plans, money for new curriculum materials, and systems in place for coaching and supporting teachers—provisions these laws don’t always include, Woulfin said. You are confusing "against the legislation as it is written" with "against teaching phonics".
- tetromino_ 10mo ago
  You see those complaints as reasonable? I would have wanted the teachers, instead of complaining, to start by apologizing to their current and former students: "We taught you badly, we mangled many of your peers' ability to read, we wasted your time and failed you - we are so sorry! We had good intentions but we didn't know better, we were ordered to follow a plan, and we didn't bother to stop and think if what we were doing made sense." But instead of acknowledging that they had been setting up children for failure and taking immediate action to improve things, they are dragging feet and complaining about "district leaders needing time to make instructional plans". As if their school and district are unique snowflakes, and nobody else in the country had published good enough plans already.
  - jfindper 10mo ago
    >You see those complaints as reasonable? My point is that these aren't "We are against teaching phonics" complaints, like the parent poster asserted. I don't agree with the rest of your comment really, either, but it doesn't have much to do with the conversation.
csb6 10mo ago
Seems like the unions have a lot of valid concerns about how the measures in those bills will be implemented and how/if new materials/training will be provided for teachers. It also seems like legislators are mostly ignoring the unions and passing the laws anyways, so not sure how unions are gaining power over curriculums in any way. If teachers’ unions had any significant leverage on legislatures I would think teacher salaries would be higher, which other unions (e.g. dockworkers) are successful at doing.