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I'm a long time user of the Arduino IDE for third party boards such as the Teensy. Recently I've switched to Platformio for coding. So I should be satisfied wit

by analog31 11mo ago

I'm a long time user of the Arduino IDE for third party boards such as the Teensy. Recently I've switched to Platformio for coding. So I should be satisfied with never needing Arduino's cloud service. But Adafruit points out a problem, which is that the cloud service is the only available option for students using school-issued Chromebooks. I can confirm that a school-issued Chromebook is likely to be set up to lock out access to any programming tools. We wouldn't want children to learn coding after all, right? I think relying on a corporation to preserve our freedom to code is a bit too optimistic.

schappim 11mo ago
> cloud service is the only available option for students using school-issued Chromebooks Perhaps Chromebooks are incompatible with open-source too?
raxxorraxor 11mo ago
Chromebooks and iPads are both completely unsuitable for digital education in my opinion. They can be decent tools for education using digital resources, but that is something different. To "force" someone to develop on a Chromebook is like giving someone a bicycle to become a race car driver. That said, I usually flashed my arduinos and used bare metal C. Ironically I think it makes many things easier to learn and understand, provided you have a programming device.
- AlexeyBrin 11mo ago
  You really can't compare a Chromebook with an iPad. On a Chromebook that I bought and that I fully own I can enable the Linux system and install whatever I want on it (it runs in a VM and it is a full Linux system). The iPad is artificially crippled for programming by Apple.
  - evilduck 11mo ago
    Your personally owned Chromebook isn’t comparable to a school issued Chromebook at all. They’re more locked down and useless than a stock iPad. Kids cannot install Linux on them.
    - AlexeyBrin 11mo ago
      This is why I said "that I fully own". I said nothing about a school issued Chromebook because I never touched one of these.
      - evilduck 11mo ago
        You commented in context of digital education. The point is that your argument of Chromebooks comparing better to iPads doesn't apply in this situation. In fact they're often worse because schools deploy the cheapest, lowest common denominator Chromebooks with slow CPUs, horrible screen resolutions, inadequate RAM and terrible battery life. Kids hate them. The fact that good and uncrippled Chromebooks exists doesn't help them at all. A 5 year old iPad is likely a better experience and a more capable OS and device than a new Chromebook issued to students this fall, but the warranty and repair costs for schools dealing with careless kids don't add up to less so they get the cheaper option.
  - organsnyder 11mo ago
    School IT departments are unlikely to allow this. Even if they don't have technical restrictions, they'll have policies that prohibit it (at least my kids' school district would). School-issued devices are generally intended to be similar to devices a corporation would provision for non-technical workers.
    - AlexeyBrin 11mo ago
      Honest question, if you buy (just a hypothetical, I assume most parents can't afford to buy one) a Chromebook for your kid that will be used in school, do you have to lock it down or can you enable the Linux system (assuming that you want to do that and that your kid is interested in learning to program).
      - evilduck 11mo ago
        Schools typically don't allow BYOD policies because of support costs and equitability between students. Assuming a school district even did allow this, they would only allow the student to use a managed Chrome profile and the school's device policy would lock out the Linux VM option and everything else that might become an in-class distraction. If a kid wants to learn how to program, they're going to have to bring their own separate computer and it will be treated about the same as bringing their smartphone to class, i.e. not allowed except during very specific times, there would be concerns about liability of damage or theft from other students, and they probably wouldn't allow it on the school networks.
        kldg 11mo ago
        Can confirm no-BYOD policy is typical. I had to whine directly and without invitation to school principal to get an exemption for daughter. The trouble with no-BYOD is the kid must bring the school-controlled Chromebook home and connect to the home network for homework (which often requires Chromebook). Many US middle and high schools have an IT department of 1 or 2 people; it introduces abuse risk I think schools in general are not appreciating. I see the problem with Chromebooks and cloud stuff more generally as being that it's difficult to see the productive use-case of programming outside just shuffling a bunch of data around. If your program's not actually doing something useful, it seems like it'd be difficult to imagine a career in it. -But if a kid can get a relay to trigger via button and then maybe via web interface and then maybe automate it, I think that opens the world of hacking up to them. You know, for $10, they can have a fully-solar (w/battery) thermometer or whatever they want -- the thermometer can feed a thermostat to energize a relay coil to start a heater or whatever. -But I might be outlier, because in school we had robotics class a lot of kids were pumped for, but I was confused because we never did anything useful with them; it was more like an art class, except at least in art class we baked ashtrays for our parents. -But what am I supposed to do with a 5-watt robot that follows yellow tape?
  - hulitu 11mo ago
    > On a Chromebook that I bought and that I fully own I can enable the Linux system and install whatever I want on it (it runs in a VM and it is a full Linux system). Do you really own it ? Can you install linux or BSD _instead_ of ChromeOS ?
    - AlexeyBrin 11mo ago
      (My original comment was about about running a Linux VM inside ChromeOS.) To answer your questions, it depends. On some Chromebook models you can wipe ChromeOS and install Linux.
    - officeplant 11mo ago
      Yes[1], depending on the chromebook / chrometablet it will have varying levels of support for even swapping the firmware and running standard linux/BSD. Sometimes you will need to open up the laptop for a jumper/screw to adjust for enabling firmware flashing. Others its just turning on dev mode first. [1]https://docs.mrchromebox.tech/docs/supported-devices.html https://docs.mrchromebox.tech/docs/supported-devices.html
- thadt 11mo ago
  What does a "digital education" look like, specifically? Having spent several years teaching kids to code everything from games to lightbulbs on Chromebooks, I can confirm that there are certainly difficulties - but they're tradeoffs. I could spend my time coming up with a way to work through the platform restrictions, or I could spend my time maintaining a motley crew of devices and configurations. Having done it both ways, they both have different pain points.
  - oneplane 11mo ago
    I think the comment mainly pointed out the distinction between education using digital methods, vs. educating about digital things.
  - FuriouslyAdrift 11mo ago
    Long long time ago in the classes I took, it was PIC16/32, breadboards, Forth, PLCs, ladder logic, etc. More recently, kids can have a ton of fun programming STM32, making DACs, audio gear, robots, etc.
- GeekyBear 11mo ago
  Apple has long provided tools for teaching kids how to code. Including lessons targeted at kids in middle schools. > young coders are asked to assist these characters achieving simple goals by coding simple instructions. As challenges become more difficult, more complex algorithms are required to solve them and new concepts are introduced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Playgrounds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Playgrounds
- assbuttbuttass 11mo ago
  > To "force" someone to develop on a Chromebook is like giving someone a bicycle to become a race car driver. Lol, I use a Chromebook for development at work
  - evilduck 11mo ago
    Your work Chromebook is completely incomparable to a school issued Chromebook. It's doubtful that your employer locks you out of literally everything that would allow you to develop software on-device. See my other comments in this thread.
    - aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
      > It's doubtful that your employer locks you out of literally everything that would allow you to develop software on-device. In strongly regulated industries, it is not unusual that you are indeed strongly locked out of this, and you need to create special requests to get access to the specific functionalities (as an exception) that you need for developing software on-device.
      - evilduck 11mo ago
        Right, many people have to treat their local computer as a thin-client and do everything through a WebEx session or similar means, which makes the local device irrelevant. Or if you're regulated but have to be specifically exempted and allowed to work in a way that schools would never permit, then in that case you'd not be arguing in good faith that kids are able to learn to code and develop on a Chromebook since they can't.
        aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
        > Or if you're regulated but have to be specifically exempted and allowed to work in a way that schools would never permit, then in that case you'd not be arguing in good faith that kids are able to learn to code and develop on a Chromebook since they can't. No, I just wanted to show that your claim > It's doubtful that your employer locks you out of literally everything that would allow you to develop software on-device. See my other comments in this thread. simply does not hold in practice. -- Addendum: Additionally, from my school experience, rather the attempts to circumvent "abitrary" restrictions on the computers which were set up by the school made you a good coder. :-)
- galleywest200 11mo ago
  If your digital education is at an art school then an iPad with creative software is great. If you mean computer science then yes you are correct.
  - AuthAuth 11mo ago
    Even then an ipad is not good. An Ipad is good for digital art and thats it. For the same money you can buy a computer capable of 3d modeling, digital art and a drawing tablet buy some paint brushes and clay to do real life art.
- mips_avatar 11mo ago
  more like giving them a speed limited citi bike and expecting them to train for cyclocross.
AlexeyBrin 11mo ago
Technically any recent Chromebook can run Linux in a VM if enabled from settings. Now, I don't know if most schools forbid this, but since it is running in a VM it is safe to use for sure.
- blackcatsec 11mo ago
  The reason people use Chromebooks is because they want to minimally manage the devices. The Chromebooks being locked down is ENTIRELY the point of using them in the first place...That and because Google.
  - 867-5309 11mo ago
    it's actually because they are half the price of a windows laptop, which means double the devices per classroom
sybercecurity 11mo ago
> We wouldn't want children to learn coding after all, right? Why aren't we teaching kids vibe coding? I've been told that is the future after all, and junior devs will never be needed ever again. All they need a webpage interface to an LLM to provide data and customer demographics for AI companies.
- brookst 11mo ago
  Because typically we don’t leap to teach kids things that are speculative. We in the industry might see AI progressing to where cube vibe coding is just as real as using spreadsheets rather than paper ledger books, but it is years out, and teaching kids on v0.1 tools would just be frustrating for teachers while likely teaching kids all the wrong things.
  - organsnyder 11mo ago
    My kids are absolutely learning how to use AI: every syllabus has guidelines for when AI usage is acceptable (it's not a blanket prohibition against), and they talk about both the pragmatic and ethical implications of it.
    - aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
      A school lesson where the teacher babbles about wishy-washy AI topics needs a lot less preparations by the teacher than a school lesson where he teaches scientifically sophisticated topics.
chrsw 11mo ago
Arduino was finished the moment it was acquired by Qualcomm.
- ASalazarMX 11mo ago
  Someone should do a conspiracy board showing why evil companies doing acquisitions have names that end in com.
TechSquidTV 11mo ago
I recently had a great time developing on ESP-32 directly in VSCode/Cursor and using the Arduino CLI. I believe very similar in concept to Platformio. I've always hated being limited to the Arduino IDE.
blensor 11mo ago
+1 for platformio, I recently switched to it and working in VSCode on the code is much more to my liking than the separate Arduino IDE
skybrian 11mo ago
Chrome can read and write to a serial port using the Web Serial API. There is also the WebUSB API, but I haven't tried that. I wonder if that would be enough to flash boards on a locked-down Chromebook?

schappim 11mo ago

> cloud service is the only available option for students using school-issued Chromebooks Perhaps Chromebooks are incompatible with open-source too?

raxxorraxor 11mo ago

Chromebooks and iPads are both completely unsuitable for digital education in my opinion. They can be decent tools for education using digital resources, but that is something different. To "force" someone to develop on a Chromebook is like giving someone a bicycle to become a race car driver. That said, I usually flashed my arduinos and used bare metal C. Ironically I think it makes many things easier to learn and understand, provided you have a programming device.

AlexeyBrin 11mo ago
You really can't compare a Chromebook with an iPad. On a Chromebook that I bought and that I fully own I can enable the Linux system and install whatever I want on it (it runs in a VM and it is a full Linux system). The iPad is artificially crippled for programming by Apple.
- evilduck 11mo ago
  Your personally owned Chromebook isn’t comparable to a school issued Chromebook at all. They’re more locked down and useless than a stock iPad. Kids cannot install Linux on them.
  - AlexeyBrin 11mo ago
    This is why I said "that I fully own". I said nothing about a school issued Chromebook because I never touched one of these.
    - evilduck 11mo ago
      You commented in context of digital education. The point is that your argument of Chromebooks comparing better to iPads doesn't apply in this situation. In fact they're often worse because schools deploy the cheapest, lowest common denominator Chromebooks with slow CPUs, horrible screen resolutions, inadequate RAM and terrible battery life. Kids hate them. The fact that good and uncrippled Chromebooks exists doesn't help them at all. A 5 year old iPad is likely a better experience and a more capable OS and device than a new Chromebook issued to students this fall, but the warranty and repair costs for schools dealing with careless kids don't add up to less so they get the cheaper option.
- organsnyder 11mo ago
  School IT departments are unlikely to allow this. Even if they don't have technical restrictions, they'll have policies that prohibit it (at least my kids' school district would). School-issued devices are generally intended to be similar to devices a corporation would provision for non-technical workers.
  - AlexeyBrin 11mo ago
    Honest question, if you buy (just a hypothetical, I assume most parents can't afford to buy one) a Chromebook for your kid that will be used in school, do you have to lock it down or can you enable the Linux system (assuming that you want to do that and that your kid is interested in learning to program).
    - evilduck 11mo ago
      Schools typically don't allow BYOD policies because of support costs and equitability between students. Assuming a school district even did allow this, they would only allow the student to use a managed Chrome profile and the school's device policy would lock out the Linux VM option and everything else that might become an in-class distraction. If a kid wants to learn how to program, they're going to have to bring their own separate computer and it will be treated about the same as bringing their smartphone to class, i.e. not allowed except during very specific times, there would be concerns about liability of damage or theft from other students, and they probably wouldn't allow it on the school networks.
      - kldg 11mo ago
        Can confirm no-BYOD policy is typical. I had to whine directly and without invitation to school principal to get an exemption for daughter. The trouble with no-BYOD is the kid must bring the school-controlled Chromebook home and connect to the home network for homework (which often requires Chromebook). Many US middle and high schools have an IT department of 1 or 2 people; it introduces abuse risk I think schools in general are not appreciating. I see the problem with Chromebooks and cloud stuff more generally as being that it's difficult to see the productive use-case of programming outside just shuffling a bunch of data around. If your program's not actually doing something useful, it seems like it'd be difficult to imagine a career in it. -But if a kid can get a relay to trigger via button and then maybe via web interface and then maybe automate it, I think that opens the world of hacking up to them. You know, for $10, they can have a fully-solar (w/battery) thermometer or whatever they want -- the thermometer can feed a thermostat to energize a relay coil to start a heater or whatever. -But I might be outlier, because in school we had robotics class a lot of kids were pumped for, but I was confused because we never did anything useful with them; it was more like an art class, except at least in art class we baked ashtrays for our parents. -But what am I supposed to do with a 5-watt robot that follows yellow tape?
- hulitu 11mo ago
  > On a Chromebook that I bought and that I fully own I can enable the Linux system and install whatever I want on it (it runs in a VM and it is a full Linux system). Do you really own it ? Can you install linux or BSD _instead_ of ChromeOS ?
  - AlexeyBrin 11mo ago
    (My original comment was about about running a Linux VM inside ChromeOS.) To answer your questions, it depends. On some Chromebook models you can wipe ChromeOS and install Linux.
  - officeplant 11mo ago
    Yes[1], depending on the chromebook / chrometablet it will have varying levels of support for even swapping the firmware and running standard linux/BSD. Sometimes you will need to open up the laptop for a jumper/screw to adjust for enabling firmware flashing. Others its just turning on dev mode first. [1]https://docs.mrchromebox.tech/docs/supported-devices.html https://docs.mrchromebox.tech/docs/supported-devices.html
thadt 11mo ago
What does a "digital education" look like, specifically? Having spent several years teaching kids to code everything from games to lightbulbs on Chromebooks, I can confirm that there are certainly difficulties - but they're tradeoffs. I could spend my time coming up with a way to work through the platform restrictions, or I could spend my time maintaining a motley crew of devices and configurations. Having done it both ways, they both have different pain points.
- oneplane 11mo ago
  I think the comment mainly pointed out the distinction between education using digital methods, vs. educating about digital things.
- FuriouslyAdrift 11mo ago
  Long long time ago in the classes I took, it was PIC16/32, breadboards, Forth, PLCs, ladder logic, etc. More recently, kids can have a ton of fun programming STM32, making DACs, audio gear, robots, etc.
GeekyBear 11mo ago
Apple has long provided tools for teaching kids how to code. Including lessons targeted at kids in middle schools. > young coders are asked to assist these characters achieving simple goals by coding simple instructions. As challenges become more difficult, more complex algorithms are required to solve them and new concepts are introduced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Playgrounds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Playgrounds
assbuttbuttass 11mo ago
> To "force" someone to develop on a Chromebook is like giving someone a bicycle to become a race car driver. Lol, I use a Chromebook for development at work
- evilduck 11mo ago
  Your work Chromebook is completely incomparable to a school issued Chromebook. It's doubtful that your employer locks you out of literally everything that would allow you to develop software on-device. See my other comments in this thread.
  - aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
    > It's doubtful that your employer locks you out of literally everything that would allow you to develop software on-device. In strongly regulated industries, it is not unusual that you are indeed strongly locked out of this, and you need to create special requests to get access to the specific functionalities (as an exception) that you need for developing software on-device.
    - evilduck 11mo ago
      Right, many people have to treat their local computer as a thin-client and do everything through a WebEx session or similar means, which makes the local device irrelevant. Or if you're regulated but have to be specifically exempted and allowed to work in a way that schools would never permit, then in that case you'd not be arguing in good faith that kids are able to learn to code and develop on a Chromebook since they can't.
      - aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
        > Or if you're regulated but have to be specifically exempted and allowed to work in a way that schools would never permit, then in that case you'd not be arguing in good faith that kids are able to learn to code and develop on a Chromebook since they can't. No, I just wanted to show that your claim > It's doubtful that your employer locks you out of literally everything that would allow you to develop software on-device. See my other comments in this thread. simply does not hold in practice. -- Addendum: Additionally, from my school experience, rather the attempts to circumvent "abitrary" restrictions on the computers which were set up by the school made you a good coder. :-)
galleywest200 11mo ago
If your digital education is at an art school then an iPad with creative software is great. If you mean computer science then yes you are correct.
- AuthAuth 11mo ago
  Even then an ipad is not good. An Ipad is good for digital art and thats it. For the same money you can buy a computer capable of 3d modeling, digital art and a drawing tablet buy some paint brushes and clay to do real life art.
mips_avatar 11mo ago
more like giving them a speed limited citi bike and expecting them to train for cyclocross.

AlexeyBrin 11mo ago

Technically any recent Chromebook can run Linux in a VM if enabled from settings. Now, I don't know if most schools forbid this, but since it is running in a VM it is safe to use for sure.

blackcatsec 11mo ago
The reason people use Chromebooks is because they want to minimally manage the devices. The Chromebooks being locked down is ENTIRELY the point of using them in the first place...That and because Google.
- 867-5309 11mo ago
  it's actually because they are half the price of a windows laptop, which means double the devices per classroom

sybercecurity 11mo ago

> We wouldn't want children to learn coding after all, right? Why aren't we teaching kids vibe coding? I've been told that is the future after all, and junior devs will never be needed ever again. All they need a webpage interface to an LLM to provide data and customer demographics for AI companies.

brookst 11mo ago
Because typically we don’t leap to teach kids things that are speculative. We in the industry might see AI progressing to where cube vibe coding is just as real as using spreadsheets rather than paper ledger books, but it is years out, and teaching kids on v0.1 tools would just be frustrating for teachers while likely teaching kids all the wrong things.
- organsnyder 11mo ago
  My kids are absolutely learning how to use AI: every syllabus has guidelines for when AI usage is acceptable (it's not a blanket prohibition against), and they talk about both the pragmatic and ethical implications of it.
  - aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
    A school lesson where the teacher babbles about wishy-washy AI topics needs a lot less preparations by the teacher than a school lesson where he teaches scientifically sophisticated topics.

chrsw 11mo ago

Arduino was finished the moment it was acquired by Qualcomm.

ASalazarMX 11mo ago
Someone should do a conspiracy board showing why evil companies doing acquisitions have names that end in com.

TechSquidTV 11mo ago

I recently had a great time developing on ESP-32 directly in VSCode/Cursor and using the Arduino CLI. I believe very similar in concept to Platformio. I've always hated being limited to the Arduino IDE.

blensor 11mo ago

+1 for platformio, I recently switched to it and working in VSCode on the code is much more to my liking than the separate Arduino IDE

skybrian 11mo ago

Chrome can read and write to a serial port using the Web Serial API. There is also the WebUSB API, but I haven't tried that. I wonder if that would be enough to flash boards on a locked-down Chromebook?