7 ms·

I'm curious - how do you see Europe surviving if not through further integration? How do you envision, say Lithuania standing up to Russia, China or the US? W

by saubeidl 11mo ago

I'm curious - how do you see Europe surviving if not through further integration? How do you envision, say Lithuania standing up to Russia, China or the US? What is your preferred model? All of us staying in little insignificant countries, kowtowing to larger powers? Also, the National Rally is clearly far-right. It was founded by former Waffen SS-members, for chrissake.

mytailorisrich 11mo ago
The fallacy is obvious right there... Why would "Europe's survival" be at stake without further integration? Why would Lithuania need to stand up to Russia, China, or the US? (In terms of defense there are military alliances. They have never required political union or giving up sovereignty) Edit as you added things: > Also, the National Rally is clearly far-right. Making outrageous claims does not make them factual. > It was founded by former Waffen SS-members, for chrissake. That's the FN that preceded the RN, some other founders were involved in the Resistance, too. That's the typical FUD narrative I mentioned, which takes the situation in 1972 and uses it to describe 2025. Are you saying that the majority of French MPs are Nazis? That's obviously ridiculous. Most US founding fathers were slave owners, so obviously the US are pro-slavery, like the Democratic Party that used to support slavery... Equally ridiculous. Again, today the RN is the main party of the right, nothing more. Their positions today would have made them in Chirac's rightwing government in 1986, not in the FN of the time. The situation today is more like this: "Why Serge Klarsfeld, the renowned Nazi hunter, says he's ready to vote RN" [1] clearly a little different from your claims... [1] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/politics/article/2024/06/23/why-serge-klarsfeld-the-renowned-nazi-hunter-says-he-s-ready-to-vote-rn_6675540_5.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/politics/article/2024/06/23/why-se...
- saubeidl 11mo ago
  Do you think Lithuania can in any way negotiate on anything approaching equal terms with any of those? What you're asking for is effectively to become a client state of one of the above. I notice you didn't address the elephant in the room regarding the National Rally, i.e. its founders being actual Nazis. (like, the Hitler kind, not just random right wing extremists). Changing their name does not make this any less true - hell, one of their founders was talking about putting a Jewish singer in the oven (!!!) only a few years ago.
  - 6510 11mo ago
    > What you're asking for is effectively to become a client state of one of the above. You optimist! It seems more like one has to be a client state for all of the above simultaneously and be punished whenever contradicting orders are handed down.
  - jack_tripper 11mo ago
    >Do you think Lithuania can in any way negotiate on anything approaching equal terms with any of those? Do you think Lithuania, or other such small countries like Serbia, Albania, Bosnia, Georgia, etc, can negotiate on equal terms with the EU? I got news for you, when you're small country bordering large empires, you're gonna get absorbed into one or the other, whether you want to or not, because you don't really have a choice.
    - saubeidl 11mo ago
      Lithuania doesn't need to negotiate with the EU, they are the EU. The others can't, of course. That's the point! We become one of the predators instead of staying prey like them. > I got news for you, when you're small country bordering large empires, you're gonna get absorbed into one or the other, whether you want to or not, because you don't really have a choice. Exactly! That's why we need to build our own empire based on our own rules instead of letting foreign dictators gobble us up.
      - jack_tripper 11mo ago
        >Lithuania doesn't need to negotiate with the EU, they are the EU. Unless the EU gangs up on you and takes away your veto ability "in case of emergency", in which case you have to shut up and take it. >The others can't, of course. That's the point! We become one of the predators instead of staying prey like them. Do you not see the irony here?
        saubeidl 11mo ago
        The EU is us, not national governments. National governments are a relic of old tribal days, we are all Europeans. I do not feel represented by my national government at all, all they do is get in the way. If we can finally get rid of those impediments, we will be able to project so much more power.
jack_tripper 11mo ago
>I'm curious - how do you see Europe surviving if not through further integration? I don't, with or without further integration. Not everyone or everything is meant to survive. Everything has a shelf life. The Roman empire also collapsed. Rearranging the deckchairs of the titanic doesn't change the outcome. >What is your preferred model? All of us staying in little insignificant countries, kowtowing to larger powers? A union is good, but the EU only worked at preventing another world war between members, not at helping us be united against foreign entities, because you can't force unity between different dethatched cultures just because we're neighbours, as proven by Yugoslavia, the USSR, etc. Every EU member is still driven by self interest and own group preference, which will be the EU's doom. Like Spain doesn't really care as much about the Eastern war as Poland or Romania do because they're far away from the war and don't see why they should pay more taxpayer money for it. Germans care more about something happening in Austria than about what's happening in Bulgaria. And so on.
- 0dayz 11mo ago
  >I don't, with or without further integration. Not everyone or everything is meant to survive. Everything has a shelf life. The Roman empire also collapsed. Rearranging the deckchairs of the titanic doesn't change the outcome. Why have strong opinions if you're really just a doomer? Yugoslavia broke up mainly due to ethnic not cultural differences, it wasn't Croatian Serbs against Bosnian Serbs. And the entire point of a healthy relationship is to compromise and try to understand the other side, which is the point of the EU. So Spain contributes to the east as a compromise for getting heavy subsidies themselves.
  - jack_tripper 11mo ago
    >Why have strong opinions if you're really just a doomer? Are you the opinion police? >the entire point of a healthy relationship is to compromise and try to understand the other side, which is the point of the EU The problem with compromise is that everyone becomes equally unhappy. And when everyone is unhappy strange results come at elections. EU member states are so different, that you can't have regulations that benefits an economy like Denmark and also simultaneously one like Romania. Which is how places like Romania now have German energy and grocery prices but Romanian wages and pensions. Not exactly a great compromise for a lot of Romanians. >So Spain contributes to the east as a compromise for getting heavy subsidies themselves. It doesn't matter how it is in reality, what matters is how Spanish voters perceive it come election times. Elections are always won on vibes and feels rather than facts and arguments.
graemep 11mo ago
What do you mean by "Europe"? Yes, Lithuania has a problem, but the UK, France and Germany do not. > What is your preferred model? There are lots of alternatives to turning the EU unto a federal state with its own armies. Alliances for one. It has been NATO that filled this role for over 70 years, and successfully so against a far more powerful threat than Russia. > All of us staying in little insignificant countries, kowtowing to larger powers? Lots of "insignificant little countries" seem to do rather well. Switzerland, Singapore, Norway,..... I can see the nationalist appeal of belonging to a big powerful country, but it does not really do the people of a country much good.
- saubeidl 11mo ago
  The threat isn't just military and it's not just coming from Russia. Think about economic extortion from the US and China, how would little Lithuania defend against that? Two of those three little countries have to follow EU law without having any say in it - my point exactly!
  - graemep 11mo ago
    > Two of those three little countries have to follow EU law without having any say in it - my point exactly! The same is true for any treaty. The same is true for internal negotiations within the EU. > Think about economic extortion from the US and China, how would little Lithuania defend against that? Could the EU do much better than the larger countries can do by themselves? Especially in the long term its much lower growth rate means its going to be a relatively smaller and smaller economy compared to the US or China. Despite all the expansion, the EU at the time the UK left was a much smaller proportion of the global economy than the EU at the time the UK joined.
    - saubeidl 11mo ago
      The EU is both the world's largest importer as well as its largest exporter. Its economic leverage is unmatched.
      - 11mo ago

mytailorisrich 11mo ago

The fallacy is obvious right there... Why would "Europe's survival" be at stake without further integration? Why would Lithuania need to stand up to Russia, China, or the US? (In terms of defense there are military alliances. They have never required political union or giving up sovereignty) Edit as you added things: > Also, the National Rally is clearly far-right. Making outrageous claims does not make them factual. > It was founded by former Waffen SS-members, for chrissake. That's the FN that preceded the RN, some other founders were involved in the Resistance, too. That's the typical FUD narrative I mentioned, which takes the situation in 1972 and uses it to describe 2025. Are you saying that the majority of French MPs are Nazis? That's obviously ridiculous. Most US founding fathers were slave owners, so obviously the US are pro-slavery, like the Democratic Party that used to support slavery... Equally ridiculous. Again, today the RN is the main party of the right, nothing more. Their positions today would have made them in Chirac's rightwing government in 1986, not in the FN of the time. The situation today is more like this: "Why Serge Klarsfeld, the renowned Nazi hunter, says he's ready to vote RN" [1] clearly a little different from your claims... [1] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/politics/article/2024/06/23/why-serge-klarsfeld-the-renowned-nazi-hunter-says-he-s-ready-to-vote-rn_6675540_5.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/politics/article/2024/06/23/why-se...

saubeidl 11mo ago
Do you think Lithuania can in any way negotiate on anything approaching equal terms with any of those? What you're asking for is effectively to become a client state of one of the above. I notice you didn't address the elephant in the room regarding the National Rally, i.e. its founders being actual Nazis. (like, the Hitler kind, not just random right wing extremists). Changing their name does not make this any less true - hell, one of their founders was talking about putting a Jewish singer in the oven (!!!) only a few years ago.
- 6510 11mo ago
  > What you're asking for is effectively to become a client state of one of the above. You optimist! It seems more like one has to be a client state for all of the above simultaneously and be punished whenever contradicting orders are handed down.
- jack_tripper 11mo ago
  >Do you think Lithuania can in any way negotiate on anything approaching equal terms with any of those? Do you think Lithuania, or other such small countries like Serbia, Albania, Bosnia, Georgia, etc, can negotiate on equal terms with the EU? I got news for you, when you're small country bordering large empires, you're gonna get absorbed into one or the other, whether you want to or not, because you don't really have a choice.
  - saubeidl 11mo ago
    Lithuania doesn't need to negotiate with the EU, they are the EU. The others can't, of course. That's the point! We become one of the predators instead of staying prey like them. > I got news for you, when you're small country bordering large empires, you're gonna get absorbed into one or the other, whether you want to or not, because you don't really have a choice. Exactly! That's why we need to build our own empire based on our own rules instead of letting foreign dictators gobble us up.
    - jack_tripper 11mo ago
      >Lithuania doesn't need to negotiate with the EU, they are the EU. Unless the EU gangs up on you and takes away your veto ability "in case of emergency", in which case you have to shut up and take it. >The others can't, of course. That's the point! We become one of the predators instead of staying prey like them. Do you not see the irony here?
      - saubeidl 11mo ago
        The EU is us, not national governments. National governments are a relic of old tribal days, we are all Europeans. I do not feel represented by my national government at all, all they do is get in the way. If we can finally get rid of those impediments, we will be able to project so much more power.

jack_tripper 11mo ago

>I'm curious - how do you see Europe surviving if not through further integration? I don't, with or without further integration. Not everyone or everything is meant to survive. Everything has a shelf life. The Roman empire also collapsed. Rearranging the deckchairs of the titanic doesn't change the outcome. >What is your preferred model? All of us staying in little insignificant countries, kowtowing to larger powers? A union is good, but the EU only worked at preventing another world war between members, not at helping us be united against foreign entities, because you can't force unity between different dethatched cultures just because we're neighbours, as proven by Yugoslavia, the USSR, etc. Every EU member is still driven by self interest and own group preference, which will be the EU's doom. Like Spain doesn't really care as much about the Eastern war as Poland or Romania do because they're far away from the war and don't see why they should pay more taxpayer money for it. Germans care more about something happening in Austria than about what's happening in Bulgaria. And so on.

0dayz 11mo ago
>I don't, with or without further integration. Not everyone or everything is meant to survive. Everything has a shelf life. The Roman empire also collapsed. Rearranging the deckchairs of the titanic doesn't change the outcome. Why have strong opinions if you're really just a doomer? Yugoslavia broke up mainly due to ethnic not cultural differences, it wasn't Croatian Serbs against Bosnian Serbs. And the entire point of a healthy relationship is to compromise and try to understand the other side, which is the point of the EU. So Spain contributes to the east as a compromise for getting heavy subsidies themselves.
- jack_tripper 11mo ago
  >Why have strong opinions if you're really just a doomer? Are you the opinion police? >the entire point of a healthy relationship is to compromise and try to understand the other side, which is the point of the EU The problem with compromise is that everyone becomes equally unhappy. And when everyone is unhappy strange results come at elections. EU member states are so different, that you can't have regulations that benefits an economy like Denmark and also simultaneously one like Romania. Which is how places like Romania now have German energy and grocery prices but Romanian wages and pensions. Not exactly a great compromise for a lot of Romanians. >So Spain contributes to the east as a compromise for getting heavy subsidies themselves. It doesn't matter how it is in reality, what matters is how Spanish voters perceive it come election times. Elections are always won on vibes and feels rather than facts and arguments.

graemep 11mo ago

What do you mean by "Europe"? Yes, Lithuania has a problem, but the UK, France and Germany do not. > What is your preferred model? There are lots of alternatives to turning the EU unto a federal state with its own armies. Alliances for one. It has been NATO that filled this role for over 70 years, and successfully so against a far more powerful threat than Russia. > All of us staying in little insignificant countries, kowtowing to larger powers? Lots of "insignificant little countries" seem to do rather well. Switzerland, Singapore, Norway,..... I can see the nationalist appeal of belonging to a big powerful country, but it does not really do the people of a country much good.

saubeidl 11mo ago
The threat isn't just military and it's not just coming from Russia. Think about economic extortion from the US and China, how would little Lithuania defend against that? Two of those three little countries have to follow EU law without having any say in it - my point exactly!
- graemep 11mo ago
  > Two of those three little countries have to follow EU law without having any say in it - my point exactly! The same is true for any treaty. The same is true for internal negotiations within the EU. > Think about economic extortion from the US and China, how would little Lithuania defend against that? Could the EU do much better than the larger countries can do by themselves? Especially in the long term its much lower growth rate means its going to be a relatively smaller and smaller economy compared to the US or China. Despite all the expansion, the EU at the time the UK left was a much smaller proportion of the global economy than the EU at the time the UK joined.
  - saubeidl 11mo ago
    The EU is both the world's largest importer as well as its largest exporter. Its economic leverage is unmatched.
    - 11mo ago