4 ms·

Well, this is the idea at the heart of it which has been pushed for many decades in some form or another. The EU/EEC etc started like the Zollverein which helpe

Well, this is the idea at the heart of it which has been pushed for many decades in some form or another. The EU/EEC etc started like the Zollverein which helped Germany unite. Personally I wish the EU had modelled itself more around Switzerland than the USA which is fast turning into its primary model. (By the way, some far rightists have pushed a united Europe for some time. The two ideas are not necessarily contradictory. Oswald Mosley was such a person.)

saubeidl 11mo ago
Personally, I think the SFRJ would be a nicer model - but I'll take what I can get at this point.
- derelicta 11mo ago
  I don't think central planning will be genuinely practiced any time soon in Europe unfortunately...
  - jack_tripper 11mo ago
    Everyone wants central planning until the appointed central planners do something that disadvantages them specifically. Then they suddenly remember they want national sovereignty to protect their interests from the central planners. That's how you have massive pro an anti EU splits in the same country. Because central planning tends to produce massive economic gaps between the winners and losers of the planning policies.
    - derelicta 11mo ago
      That's a problem a much bigger country like China doesn't really face surprisingly, despite having central planners, and despite having plenty of different nationalities! Maybe Euros could learn a bit from them and democratic centralism too
      - nephihaha 11mo ago
        China is only interested in its minorities as a means to promote tourism. Horrible example. Children are put into boarding schools in many places where they are forced to use Mandarin. It is currently bussing in lots of Mandarin speakers into Hong Kong to undermine Cantonese. It has done a good job of undermining Tibetan as well.
        vee-kay 11mo ago
        China (whose Maoists control the Nepal government) has mandated Mandarin Chinese to be taught in Nepal's schools as well. https://thehimalayantimes.com/nepal/mandarin-made-mandatory-in-many-schools/ https://thehimalayantimes.com/nepal/mandarin-made-mandatory-... https://www.regentschool.edu.np/chinese-language-classes/ https://www.regentschool.edu.np/chinese-language-classes/ China will destroy or subsume all native culture in every nation/land it gains control of. China is following the Colonial model of divide, conquer/conquest and containment, except this is all happening in the modern era.
        saubeidl 11mo ago
        What's bad about Mandarin being mandatory in schools? English is mandatory in most European schools, is that colonialism as well or just pragmatism?
        computerthings 11mo ago
        [dead]
        nephihaha 11mo ago
        What's bad? They're being punished if they speak their native language and are taken away from their home communities. No better than the stupid boarding schools minorities were sent to in the west.
        saubeidl 11mo ago
- igilism 11mo ago
  [flagged]
  - saubeidl 11mo ago
    Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - computerthings 11mo ago
      [dead]
    - igilism 11mo ago
      [flagged]
jack_tripper 11mo ago
>Personally I wish the EU had modelled itself more around Switzerland than the USA which is fast turning into its primary model. The EU has not modeled itself around the USA, what are you on about? >(By the way, some far rightists have pushed a united Europe for some time. The two ideas are not necessarily contradictory. Oswald Mosley was such a person.) Had no idea who Oswald Mosley even was, but looking him up, he's been dead for 30+ years now. It's disingenuous to paint such long deceased people as still representative for their original cause today. People change, organisations change and countries change over the decades. What was a democratic/left-wing point 30 years ago (strict immigration controls) is now considered far right extremism. The EU, in its form back then from 30 years ago is different than the EU beast of today which swallowed the previously separate EU, EEC and EC post 2009. The US of 30 years ago is different than the US of today because society has changed a lot since then both demographically and economically. You can't dig up people from 70 years ago as representative for the same ideologies because both the ideologies and the people are different now. That's like driving forward while only looking in the rearview mirror. Right wing people have and will be Eurosceptics (Euro here meaning the EU org in Brussels, not Europe the continent) since they don't want to be led by a foreign org that's not directly accountable to them.
- coldtea 11mo ago
  >The EU has not modeled itself around the USA, what are you on about? He explicitly said what they mean: "which is fast turning into its primary model". What it WAS (emphasis in past tense) modeled itself around is not the point here.
- nephihaha 11mo ago
  I think you missed my point. The idea is not new at all. Winston Churchill supported the idea of a United States of Europe, and so did certain figures way back in the EEC days. If an idea is promoted over the course of decades, of course some kids will promote it later. I heard ideas being promoted in the early to mid nineties that are only coming about now. In fact the 1980s, "Star Trek the Next Generation" does that in several instances (such as AI assistants and tracking everyone's location electronically.) "Had no idea who Oswald Mosley even was, but looking him up, he's been dead for 30+ years now." Erm, that was my point. It's not a new idea and has long been promoted across the political spectrum including the far right. "The EU, in its form back then from 30 years ago is different than the EU beast of today which swallowed the previously separate EU, EEC and EC post 2009. The US of 30 years ago is different than the US of today because society has changed a lot since then both demographically and economically." I see it largely developing to plan. It started as a kind of customs union in Benelux and has been on that road ever since. The absorption of the Iron Curtain countries has been its biggest challenge, and if it expands outside Europe that won't be some great shock either. There has been talk of adding Turkey and even Morocco to the EU for decades. "You can't dig up people from 70 years ago as representative for the same ideologies because both the ideologies and the people are different now. That's like driving forward while only looking in the rearview mirror." Yes, you can. It's historical progression. There was a roadmap for EU development that was being discussed as far back as the seventies and even the fifties. "Right wing people have and will be Eurosceptics (Euro here meaning the EU org in Brussels, not Europe the continent) since they don't want to be led by a foreign org that's not directly accountable to them." That isn't true. Plenty of right wing people have been Europhiles, even the far right. On the flipside, there have also been plenty of left and far left Eurosceptics. Left wing Brexiteers in the UK are/were a thing. They called their movement "Lexit" but have been mostly written out of accounts, which tend to focus more on Farage and the right wing ones. Their arguments are not usually based around migration, but local democracy and also their notion that the EU was capitalist and neoliberal, and revolved around trade and money.

saubeidl 11mo ago

Personally, I think the SFRJ would be a nicer model - but I'll take what I can get at this point.

derelicta 11mo ago
I don't think central planning will be genuinely practiced any time soon in Europe unfortunately...
- jack_tripper 11mo ago
  Everyone wants central planning until the appointed central planners do something that disadvantages them specifically. Then they suddenly remember they want national sovereignty to protect their interests from the central planners. That's how you have massive pro an anti EU splits in the same country. Because central planning tends to produce massive economic gaps between the winners and losers of the planning policies.
  - derelicta 11mo ago
    That's a problem a much bigger country like China doesn't really face surprisingly, despite having central planners, and despite having plenty of different nationalities! Maybe Euros could learn a bit from them and democratic centralism too
    - nephihaha 11mo ago
      China is only interested in its minorities as a means to promote tourism. Horrible example. Children are put into boarding schools in many places where they are forced to use Mandarin. It is currently bussing in lots of Mandarin speakers into Hong Kong to undermine Cantonese. It has done a good job of undermining Tibetan as well.
      - vee-kay 11mo ago
        China (whose Maoists control the Nepal government) has mandated Mandarin Chinese to be taught in Nepal's schools as well. https://thehimalayantimes.com/nepal/mandarin-made-mandatory-in-many-schools/ https://thehimalayantimes.com/nepal/mandarin-made-mandatory-... https://www.regentschool.edu.np/chinese-language-classes/ https://www.regentschool.edu.np/chinese-language-classes/ China will destroy or subsume all native culture in every nation/land it gains control of. China is following the Colonial model of divide, conquer/conquest and containment, except this is all happening in the modern era.
        saubeidl 11mo ago
        What's bad about Mandarin being mandatory in schools? English is mandatory in most European schools, is that colonialism as well or just pragmatism?
        computerthings 11mo ago
        [dead]
        nephihaha 11mo ago
        What's bad? They're being punished if they speak their native language and are taken away from their home communities. No better than the stupid boarding schools minorities were sent to in the west.
        saubeidl 11mo ago
igilism 11mo ago
[flagged]
- saubeidl 11mo ago
  Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - computerthings 11mo ago
    [dead]
  - igilism 11mo ago
    [flagged]

jack_tripper 11mo ago

>Personally I wish the EU had modelled itself more around Switzerland than the USA which is fast turning into its primary model. The EU has not modeled itself around the USA, what are you on about? >(By the way, some far rightists have pushed a united Europe for some time. The two ideas are not necessarily contradictory. Oswald Mosley was such a person.) Had no idea who Oswald Mosley even was, but looking him up, he's been dead for 30+ years now. It's disingenuous to paint such long deceased people as still representative for their original cause today. People change, organisations change and countries change over the decades. What was a democratic/left-wing point 30 years ago (strict immigration controls) is now considered far right extremism. The EU, in its form back then from 30 years ago is different than the EU beast of today which swallowed the previously separate EU, EEC and EC post 2009. The US of 30 years ago is different than the US of today because society has changed a lot since then both demographically and economically. You can't dig up people from 70 years ago as representative for the same ideologies because both the ideologies and the people are different now. That's like driving forward while only looking in the rearview mirror. Right wing people have and will be Eurosceptics (Euro here meaning the EU org in Brussels, not Europe the continent) since they don't want to be led by a foreign org that's not directly accountable to them.

coldtea 11mo ago
>The EU has not modeled itself around the USA, what are you on about? He explicitly said what they mean: "which is fast turning into its primary model". What it WAS (emphasis in past tense) modeled itself around is not the point here.
nephihaha 11mo ago
I think you missed my point. The idea is not new at all. Winston Churchill supported the idea of a United States of Europe, and so did certain figures way back in the EEC days. If an idea is promoted over the course of decades, of course some kids will promote it later. I heard ideas being promoted in the early to mid nineties that are only coming about now. In fact the 1980s, "Star Trek the Next Generation" does that in several instances (such as AI assistants and tracking everyone's location electronically.) "Had no idea who Oswald Mosley even was, but looking him up, he's been dead for 30+ years now." Erm, that was my point. It's not a new idea and has long been promoted across the political spectrum including the far right. "The EU, in its form back then from 30 years ago is different than the EU beast of today which swallowed the previously separate EU, EEC and EC post 2009. The US of 30 years ago is different than the US of today because society has changed a lot since then both demographically and economically." I see it largely developing to plan. It started as a kind of customs union in Benelux and has been on that road ever since. The absorption of the Iron Curtain countries has been its biggest challenge, and if it expands outside Europe that won't be some great shock either. There has been talk of adding Turkey and even Morocco to the EU for decades. "You can't dig up people from 70 years ago as representative for the same ideologies because both the ideologies and the people are different now. That's like driving forward while only looking in the rearview mirror." Yes, you can. It's historical progression. There was a roadmap for EU development that was being discussed as far back as the seventies and even the fifties. "Right wing people have and will be Eurosceptics (Euro here meaning the EU org in Brussels, not Europe the continent) since they don't want to be led by a foreign org that's not directly accountable to them." That isn't true. Plenty of right wing people have been Europhiles, even the far right. On the flipside, there have also been plenty of left and far left Eurosceptics. Left wing Brexiteers in the UK are/were a thing. They called their movement "Lexit" but have been mostly written out of accounts, which tend to focus more on Farage and the right wing ones. Their arguments are not usually based around migration, but local democracy and also their notion that the EU was capitalist and neoliberal, and revolved around trade and money.