4 ms·

It's been many decades since I read it, but there was some mention of this in Feynman's first autobiography (Surely You're Joking). He described learning about

It's been many decades since I read it, but there was some mention of this in Feynman's first autobiography (Surely You're Joking). He described learning about the problem and investigating the root cause, which is also described in this speech. (The root cause was a focus on the memorization of scattered facts vs. making students understand the subject matter.)

rramadass 10mo ago
This speech by Feynman was based on his experiences teaching Physics in Brazil in the 1950s (details mentioned in the "Surely You're Joking" book). "tomhow" has posted the link to a previous HN discussion specifically w.r.t. the Brazil experience. However, this speech generalizes and posits that the problem is not specific to Latin America but to most countries (including so-called developed ones) in the teaching of Physics or any other Science. Hence the opening para; The problem of teaching physics in Latin America is only part of the wider problem of teaching physics anywhere. In fact, it is part of the problem of teaching anything anywhere – a problem for which there is no known satisfactory solution. I think this is highly pertinent today given the use of AI/LLM models for extracting "correct answers" to all of settled (mostly) Science. At least with a textbook you had to expend some thought/effort; with AI tools even that is removed and you literally need know/understand even less than before. So where does that leave Science Education? How do we reform the Education System?
- mieses 10mo ago
  AI will wreck your capitalized "Education System" and that is good. We'll be fine.
  - easyThrowaway 10mo ago
    Fully agree with your first statement, mush less so with the other two.
ozim 10mo ago
Why do we expect school or university to teach „understanding”. It is like teaching snowboarding. You can get the pointers but students have to actually do the snowboarding - there is no shortcut. The same with knowledge and understanding, you can organize material so they don’t end up in unproductive rabbit holes - but they have to work out their understanding on their own. Classroom setting is also not really good one unless you have small groups on the same level - larger group and you are just pulling slow ones up and fast ones are getting bored.
- adrianN 10mo ago
  Students study to pass exams, teachers teach to enable students to pass exams. If your grading is based mostly on correctly reproducing facts and applying algorithms you memorized then that’s the outcome your education system optimizes for.
  - Swizec 10mo ago
    > If your grading is based mostly on correctly reproducing facts and applying algorithms you memorized then that’s the outcome your education system optimizes for My favorite college class was compilers. The whole semester you worked on a compiler for a simplified Pascal. Each homework added a feature. The final exam was 4 hours. Open textbook, open internet. No chat with classmates. You got a description of 3 features to add to your compiler. Grade is number of tests passed. Fantastic way to teach understanding.
  - Ntrails 10mo ago
    My uni claimed grading was something like: ~ 40% bookwork. Rote learned facts ~ 30% standard questions. Do in an exam hall standard variants of what was done in class/homework/tutorials. ~ 30% New applications and logical extensions. I don't know how well they achieved that split, I suspect it was mostly aspirational. Seemed like a reasonable ideal though!
- hks0 10mo ago
  I agree with your both of your observations; And I also think what's missing is the acknowledgement that connects the two. Students come with the expectation of "chew it for me" and schools have the expectation of "I'm going to throw the material at you, you can & will handle it yourself". But it doesn't need to be that hopeless. Learning is a skill and schools can help each individual find the ways working best for them. Starting by not packing gazillion number of people in a class.
jason_s 10mo ago
Yes -- you're right. And it was more colorful than this speech, but with the same essential conclusion. https://www.drjez.com/uco/Misc/Feynman.htm https://www.drjez.com/uco/Misc/Feynman.htm https://archive.org/details/surelyyourejokin0000feyn/page/210/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/surelyyourejokin0000feyn/page/21... (starts on page 11)

rramadass 10mo ago

This speech by Feynman was based on his experiences teaching Physics in Brazil in the 1950s (details mentioned in the "Surely You're Joking" book). "tomhow" has posted the link to a previous HN discussion specifically w.r.t. the Brazil experience. However, this speech generalizes and posits that the problem is not specific to Latin America but to most countries (including so-called developed ones) in the teaching of Physics or any other Science. Hence the opening para; The problem of teaching physics in Latin America is only part of the wider problem of teaching physics anywhere. In fact, it is part of the problem of teaching anything anywhere – a problem for which there is no known satisfactory solution. I think this is highly pertinent today given the use of AI/LLM models for extracting "correct answers" to all of settled (mostly) Science. At least with a textbook you had to expend some thought/effort; with AI tools even that is removed and you literally need know/understand even less than before. So where does that leave Science Education? How do we reform the Education System?

mieses 10mo ago
AI will wreck your capitalized "Education System" and that is good. We'll be fine.
- easyThrowaway 10mo ago
  Fully agree with your first statement, mush less so with the other two.

ozim 10mo ago

Why do we expect school or university to teach „understanding”. It is like teaching snowboarding. You can get the pointers but students have to actually do the snowboarding - there is no shortcut. The same with knowledge and understanding, you can organize material so they don’t end up in unproductive rabbit holes - but they have to work out their understanding on their own. Classroom setting is also not really good one unless you have small groups on the same level - larger group and you are just pulling slow ones up and fast ones are getting bored.

adrianN 10mo ago
Students study to pass exams, teachers teach to enable students to pass exams. If your grading is based mostly on correctly reproducing facts and applying algorithms you memorized then that’s the outcome your education system optimizes for.
- Swizec 10mo ago
  > If your grading is based mostly on correctly reproducing facts and applying algorithms you memorized then that’s the outcome your education system optimizes for My favorite college class was compilers. The whole semester you worked on a compiler for a simplified Pascal. Each homework added a feature. The final exam was 4 hours. Open textbook, open internet. No chat with classmates. You got a description of 3 features to add to your compiler. Grade is number of tests passed. Fantastic way to teach understanding.
- Ntrails 10mo ago
  My uni claimed grading was something like: ~ 40% bookwork. Rote learned facts ~ 30% standard questions. Do in an exam hall standard variants of what was done in class/homework/tutorials. ~ 30% New applications and logical extensions. I don't know how well they achieved that split, I suspect it was mostly aspirational. Seemed like a reasonable ideal though!
hks0 10mo ago
I agree with your both of your observations; And I also think what's missing is the acknowledgement that connects the two. Students come with the expectation of "chew it for me" and schools have the expectation of "I'm going to throw the material at you, you can & will handle it yourself". But it doesn't need to be that hopeless. Learning is a skill and schools can help each individual find the ways working best for them. Starting by not packing gazillion number of people in a class.

jason_s 10mo ago

Yes -- you're right. And it was more colorful than this speech, but with the same essential conclusion. https://www.drjez.com/uco/Misc/Feynman.htm https://www.drjez.com/uco/Misc/Feynman.htm https://archive.org/details/surelyyourejokin0000feyn/page/210/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/surelyyourejokin0000feyn/page/21... (starts on page 11)