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> This was for extracting email envelope metadata to build a graph of who was contacting whom, a program that Snowden's leaks showed had already been shut down.

> This was for extracting email envelope metadata to build a graph of who was contacting whom, a program that Snowden's leaks showed had already been shut down. "According to Victor Marchetti, a former special assistant to the deputy director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), a limited hangout is "spy jargon for a favorite and frequently used gimmick of the clandestine professionals. When their veil of secrecy is shredded and they can no longer rely on a phony cover story to misinform the public, they resort to admitting—sometimes even volunteering—some of the truth while still managing to withhold the key and damaging facts in the case." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout In fact, NSA's own slide deck, an excerpt of which can be viewed here: https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/fiber-optic-cables-could-be-the-key-to-nsa-snooping/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/fiber-optic-... indicate that all Google services including Gmail, Docs, Maps, and others were subject to interception. Additional NSA slides here: https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/new-slides-reveal-greater-detail-about-prism-data-collection/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/new-slides-reveal-gr... detail email, chat, video, voice, photos, stored data, VoIP, file transfers, video conferencing, notifications, social networking details, and the ever ominous "Special Requests". > What do you think the approval rate for other court orders is? It's exactly the same. "Two wrongs make a right" is considered "one of the most common fallacies in Western philosophy". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_wrongs_don%27t_make_a_right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_wrongs_don%27t_make_a_righ... > This reporting was at odds with what the leaked documents said and was later walked back. The linked article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court#Secret_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig... contains 96 references to reporting from 2004 to 2021 from a wide variety of sources. The word "retraction" does not appear once. Among the cited sources are many examples such as: A former federal judge who served on a secret court overseeing the National Security Agency's secret surveillance programs said Tuesday the panel is independent but flawed because only the government's side is represented effectively in its deliberations. "Anyone who has been a judge will tell you a judge needs to hear both sides of a case," said James Robertson, a former federal district judge based in Washington who served on the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court for three years between 2002 and 2005. https://web.archive.org/web/20130711211028/https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/oversight-board-hears-testimony-nsa-spying-19613092#.Ud3IWsjLfaW https://web.archive.org/web/20130711211028/https://abcnews.g...

lern_too_spel 10mo ago
> "According to Victor Marchetti, a former special assistant to the deputy director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), a limited hangout is "spy jargon for a favorite and frequently used gimmick of the clandestine professionals. When their veil of secrecy is shredded and they can no longer rely on a phony cover story to misinform the public, they resort to admitting—sometimes even volunteering—some of the truth while still managing to withhold the key and damaging facts in the case." Then why didn't Snowden's doc show any illegal use of that data? Instead, he leaked many things that were perfectly legal as well as which high value targets were being surveilled in China in a transparent and failed attempt to get asylum in Hong Kong. > "Two wrongs make a right" is considered "one of the most common fallacies in Western philosophy". You are assuming it's wrong. Investigators aren't going to waste their time writing up court orders that aren't likely to be approved. Instead, we find that criminal defense attorneys rarely challenge the validity of warrants as issued but may challenge whether the warrant was followed. > "Anyone who has been a judge will tell you a judge needs to hear both sides of a case," said James Robertson, a former federal district judge based in Washington who served on the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court for three years between 2002 and 2005. You're confusing multiple things here. You're confusing bulk metadata collection, which Robertson opposed, with individual surveillance warrants, which are always done without informing the person being surveilled. There was no opposing side to the bulk metadata collection, which was shut down. There was no record of mass domestic surveillance in Snowden's docs.
- timschmidt 10mo ago
  > There was no record of mass domestic surveillance in Snowden's docs. That's funny, because there's a full slide deck from NSA about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM#The_slides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM#The_slides Notably, all the glossy corporate logos pictured are of American companies with predominantly American users. Not foreign ones. "Its existence was leaked six years later by NSA contractor Edward Snowden" > Then why didn't Snowden's doc show any illegal use of that data? "Snowden's subsequent disclosures included statements that government agencies such as the United Kingdom's GCHQ also undertook mass interception and tracking of internet and communications data – described by Germany as "nightmarish" if true – allegations that the NSA engaged in "dangerous" and "criminal" activity by "hacking" civilian infrastructure networks in other countries such as "universities, hospitals, and private businesses", and alleged that compliance offered only very limited restrictive effect on mass data collection practices (including of Americans) since restrictions "are policy-based, not technically based, and can change at any time", adding that "Additionally, audits are cursory, incomplete, and easily fooled by fake justifications", with numerous self-granted exceptions, and that NSA policies encourage staff to assume the benefit of the doubt in cases of uncertainty." https://web.archive.org/web/20130626032506/http://news.yahoo.com/doubt-nsa-searches-information-americans-123943655.html https://web.archive.org/web/20130626032506/http://news.yahoo... https://web.archive.org/web/20170103043118/https://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/20/exhibit-a-procedures-nsa-document https://web.archive.org/web/20170103043118/https://www.thegu... https://web.archive.org/web/20170103043118/https://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/20/exhibit-a-procedures-nsa-document https://web.archive.org/web/20170103043118/https://www.thegu...

lern_too_spel 10mo ago

> "According to Victor Marchetti, a former special assistant to the deputy director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), a limited hangout is "spy jargon for a favorite and frequently used gimmick of the clandestine professionals. When their veil of secrecy is shredded and they can no longer rely on a phony cover story to misinform the public, they resort to admitting—sometimes even volunteering—some of the truth while still managing to withhold the key and damaging facts in the case." Then why didn't Snowden's doc show any illegal use of that data? Instead, he leaked many things that were perfectly legal as well as which high value targets were being surveilled in China in a transparent and failed attempt to get asylum in Hong Kong. > "Two wrongs make a right" is considered "one of the most common fallacies in Western philosophy". You are assuming it's wrong. Investigators aren't going to waste their time writing up court orders that aren't likely to be approved. Instead, we find that criminal defense attorneys rarely challenge the validity of warrants as issued but may challenge whether the warrant was followed. > "Anyone who has been a judge will tell you a judge needs to hear both sides of a case," said James Robertson, a former federal district judge based in Washington who served on the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court for three years between 2002 and 2005. You're confusing multiple things here. You're confusing bulk metadata collection, which Robertson opposed, with individual surveillance warrants, which are always done without informing the person being surveilled. There was no opposing side to the bulk metadata collection, which was shut down. There was no record of mass domestic surveillance in Snowden's docs.

timschmidt 10mo ago
> There was no record of mass domestic surveillance in Snowden's docs. That's funny, because there's a full slide deck from NSA about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM#The_slides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM#The_slides Notably, all the glossy corporate logos pictured are of American companies with predominantly American users. Not foreign ones. "Its existence was leaked six years later by NSA contractor Edward Snowden" > Then why didn't Snowden's doc show any illegal use of that data? "Snowden's subsequent disclosures included statements that government agencies such as the United Kingdom's GCHQ also undertook mass interception and tracking of internet and communications data – described by Germany as "nightmarish" if true – allegations that the NSA engaged in "dangerous" and "criminal" activity by "hacking" civilian infrastructure networks in other countries such as "universities, hospitals, and private businesses", and alleged that compliance offered only very limited restrictive effect on mass data collection practices (including of Americans) since restrictions "are policy-based, not technically based, and can change at any time", adding that "Additionally, audits are cursory, incomplete, and easily fooled by fake justifications", with numerous self-granted exceptions, and that NSA policies encourage staff to assume the benefit of the doubt in cases of uncertainty." https://web.archive.org/web/20130626032506/http://news.yahoo.com/doubt-nsa-searches-information-americans-123943655.html https://web.archive.org/web/20130626032506/http://news.yahoo... https://web.archive.org/web/20170103043118/https://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/20/exhibit-a-procedures-nsa-document https://web.archive.org/web/20170103043118/https://www.thegu... https://web.archive.org/web/20170103043118/https://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/20/exhibit-a-procedures-nsa-document https://web.archive.org/web/20170103043118/https://www.thegu...