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No idea where you live. But I’d hope you’d fight for the safety of your family and neighbors. Thats literally all it means to be in the idf for most.

by bushbaba 10mo ago

TRiG_Ireland 10mo ago
[flagged]
4gotunameagain 10mo ago
[flagged]
- WrongAssumption 10mo ago
  Is that a position you've been in before? If so is that what you did?
- nailer 10mo ago
  They’ve made peace with: Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, the UAE and Saudi. Hamas started the war because they were threatened by that. So no they don’t cultivate enemies. Islamists that hate Jews for not being part of their empire hate them.
  - Cyph0n 10mo ago
    And then subsequently ruined peace with 3/4 (Saudi never normalized). > Islamists that hate Jews for not being part of their empire hate them. That’s not even close to reality, but whatever helps you justify genocide I guess.
    - SilverElfin 10mo ago
      Saudi didn’t normalize because Hamas prevented it. October 7 was designed to radicalize and prevent normalization of relations. You’re helping them by reframing a justifiable war of self defense against terrorists as a “genocide”.
      - Cyph0n 10mo ago
        Yes, they didn’t normalize, so they’re irrelevant to the peace equation floated by the person I replied to. So a genocidal campaign to level Gaza and cleanse it of its human anima- oops, I meant people, expand settlements in the WB, and occupy southern Lebanon and Syria in pursuit of a “Greater Israel” is self-defense. Makes total sense.
      - C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 10mo ago
        > Saudi didn’t normalize because Hamas prevented it. October 7 was designed to radicalize and prevent normalization of relations Hamas prevented it because Israel has no free will? Israel is doomed to only react to Hamas? Israel had an option to preserve their normalization and gain and keep the sympathy of the entire world. Instead they prefered to do annihilation and genocide.
        nailer 10mo ago
        > Hamas prevented it because Israel has no free will? No. Hamas prevented it by creating another Arab Istraeli war. > Instead they prefered to do annihilation and genocide. No they didn't. You made that up. You can't have a genocide where the population increases that's a ridiculous thing to write.
    - zenf 10mo ago
      [dead]
    - nailer 10mo ago
      [flagged]
      - Cyph0n 10mo ago
        If you have an open mind & are arguing in good faith - which based on your wording is probably not the case - then I will respond to your points. Not wasting my time otherwise given that we’re two years into this calamity.
  - amanaplanacanal 10mo ago
    Of course the other side of that is that Israel hasn't exactly been kind to the Palestinians. They've been Annexing land in the West Bank and blockading Gaza for what now seems like forever. I can certainly understand why Palestinians might be pissed, even if some of their tactics are abhorrent.
    - whimsicalism 10mo ago
      this is true, but i find it difficult to earnestly believe there would be some sizable decrease in violence in the counterfactual with no Gaza blockade. Settlements, sure.
      - j_maffe 10mo ago
        Well since their land got invaded, houses stolen and demolished, burial grounds defiled, poisened with chemical weapons, ethnically dispelled, and crammed onto a piece of land the size of a city , I'd get why they'd still be pissed at the current state of affairs. This did not start on October 7th.
        nailer 10mo ago
        Arabs invaded and colonised Israel in 650. You can easily learn this from any textbook you like. Their land is 22 countries, the nearly entire middle east and north africa you can learn that for many map. Jews that were exiled to Iraq or Persia or Syria will be killed. You can learn this from any media you like that covers current affairs. You can also see that Gaza has many wide open spaces by looking at the satellite view on Google maps. People that wish to make a 23rd arab state and destroy the only Jewish state - as they proudly chant in the streets worldwide - generally propose doing this through violence you can learn this by looking at your own account history.
        bigyabai 10mo ago
        > generally propose doing this through violence Non-violence is also an option. It's Israel that generally objects to international oversight, secular governance or reparation deals.
  - ekjhgkejhgk 10mo ago
    The person you're responding to is making reference to the fact that Netanyahu props up Hamas because it's beneficial to his government. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...
  - j_maffe 10mo ago
    They made peace with Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon by invading their lands (and attempting to annex them!) and then US forced their hands to make peace. Please mention the context of this great "peace" Israel has made. Israel's neighbors don't hate it solely because of antisemitism.
    - immibis 10mo ago
      Idk man, that sounds like the reason is antisemitism. Why else would you oppose giving your land to Israel?
- whimsicalism 10mo ago
  What Israel is doing is wrong, but the notion of ‘intentionally cultivating enemies’ seems pretty obviously ahistorical.
  - xorcist 10mo ago
    It might be a reference to Netanyahu and other high ranking people of Likud who has supported of Hamas for decades, both directly and indirectly via Qatar. It is uncontroversial and there is even a well researched Wikipedia article, but for obvious reasons only include what has happened in the open. Not taking part of Israel's politics, it was a bit surprising that this hasn't been more controversial but politics in the entire region is complicated, I guess. After all, the corruption in the prime minister's office did cause protests when it was exposed so clearly people care.
    - bsaul 10mo ago
      [flagged]
      - matsemann 10mo ago
        No, virtually no one is supporting Hamas. Stop parroting that. Please allow me to be against genocide without accusing me of supporting a terrorist regime. It's dishonest. Thanks.
      - the_af 10mo ago
        This is not true. There are plenty of people horrified with both Israel and Hamas, and that while sympathizing with the plight of the Palestinians, think Hamas is hurting their chances of a peaceful solution. Many people think Israel's right-wing and Hamas need each other, a kind of symbiosis. (Netanyahu certainly needs Hamas to exist). Of course, the Israeli right wing wants to paint any opposition as pro Hamas anti semites. It's a time tested tactic.
      - j_maffe 10mo ago
        This is just some combination of a strawman and ad hominum. I'm sure you can come up with a better argument than that.
C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 10mo ago
> But I’d hope you’d fight for the safety of your family and neighbors. Thats literally all it means to be in the idf for most. This is a perpetual situation, given that Israel's pattern of territorial expansion is always military control over a new area, followed by settlement building. Since now there is a settlement with colonists living in it, now the same starting argument of "defending family and neighbours" applies, since you now need a "buffer zone" to keep the colonists safe, requiring more military control over a new area. Rinse and repeat, and Israelis are always in a situation to be forced to fight "for the safety of their family and neighbours". How convenient.
j_maffe 10mo ago
Well it looks like they derive some pleasure out of it: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer...
immibis 10mo ago
The way things are going right now, the IDF is trying to cause the total destruction of Israel. Making more enemies when you're already surrounded by enemies (that you made) is rarely a way to any kind of survival. There is only one thing still standing between Israel and complete annihilation, and that's an endless flood of US taxpayer dollars that is at risk of stopping any month now.

No idea where you live. But I’d hope you’d fight for the safety of your family and neighbors. Thats literally all it means to be in the idf for most.

TRiG_Ireland 10mo ago

[flagged]

4gotunameagain 10mo ago

[flagged]

WrongAssumption 10mo ago
Is that a position you've been in before? If so is that what you did?
nailer 10mo ago
They’ve made peace with: Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, the UAE and Saudi. Hamas started the war because they were threatened by that. So no they don’t cultivate enemies. Islamists that hate Jews for not being part of their empire hate them.
- Cyph0n 10mo ago
  And then subsequently ruined peace with 3/4 (Saudi never normalized). > Islamists that hate Jews for not being part of their empire hate them. That’s not even close to reality, but whatever helps you justify genocide I guess.
  - SilverElfin 10mo ago
    Saudi didn’t normalize because Hamas prevented it. October 7 was designed to radicalize and prevent normalization of relations. You’re helping them by reframing a justifiable war of self defense against terrorists as a “genocide”.
    - Cyph0n 10mo ago
      Yes, they didn’t normalize, so they’re irrelevant to the peace equation floated by the person I replied to. So a genocidal campaign to level Gaza and cleanse it of its human anima- oops, I meant people, expand settlements in the WB, and occupy southern Lebanon and Syria in pursuit of a “Greater Israel” is self-defense. Makes total sense.
    - C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 10mo ago
      > Saudi didn’t normalize because Hamas prevented it. October 7 was designed to radicalize and prevent normalization of relations Hamas prevented it because Israel has no free will? Israel is doomed to only react to Hamas? Israel had an option to preserve their normalization and gain and keep the sympathy of the entire world. Instead they prefered to do annihilation and genocide.
      - nailer 10mo ago
        > Hamas prevented it because Israel has no free will? No. Hamas prevented it by creating another Arab Istraeli war. > Instead they prefered to do annihilation and genocide. No they didn't. You made that up. You can't have a genocide where the population increases that's a ridiculous thing to write.
  - zenf 10mo ago
    [dead]
  - nailer 10mo ago
    [flagged]
    - Cyph0n 10mo ago
      If you have an open mind & are arguing in good faith - which based on your wording is probably not the case - then I will respond to your points. Not wasting my time otherwise given that we’re two years into this calamity.
- amanaplanacanal 10mo ago
  Of course the other side of that is that Israel hasn't exactly been kind to the Palestinians. They've been Annexing land in the West Bank and blockading Gaza for what now seems like forever. I can certainly understand why Palestinians might be pissed, even if some of their tactics are abhorrent.
  - whimsicalism 10mo ago
    this is true, but i find it difficult to earnestly believe there would be some sizable decrease in violence in the counterfactual with no Gaza blockade. Settlements, sure.
    - j_maffe 10mo ago
      Well since their land got invaded, houses stolen and demolished, burial grounds defiled, poisened with chemical weapons, ethnically dispelled, and crammed onto a piece of land the size of a city , I'd get why they'd still be pissed at the current state of affairs. This did not start on October 7th.
      - nailer 10mo ago
        Arabs invaded and colonised Israel in 650. You can easily learn this from any textbook you like. Their land is 22 countries, the nearly entire middle east and north africa you can learn that for many map. Jews that were exiled to Iraq or Persia or Syria will be killed. You can learn this from any media you like that covers current affairs. You can also see that Gaza has many wide open spaces by looking at the satellite view on Google maps. People that wish to make a 23rd arab state and destroy the only Jewish state - as they proudly chant in the streets worldwide - generally propose doing this through violence you can learn this by looking at your own account history.
        bigyabai 10mo ago
        > generally propose doing this through violence Non-violence is also an option. It's Israel that generally objects to international oversight, secular governance or reparation deals.
- ekjhgkejhgk 10mo ago
  The person you're responding to is making reference to the fact that Netanyahu props up Hamas because it's beneficial to his government. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...
- j_maffe 10mo ago
  They made peace with Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon by invading their lands (and attempting to annex them!) and then US forced their hands to make peace. Please mention the context of this great "peace" Israel has made. Israel's neighbors don't hate it solely because of antisemitism.
  - immibis 10mo ago
    Idk man, that sounds like the reason is antisemitism. Why else would you oppose giving your land to Israel?
whimsicalism 10mo ago
What Israel is doing is wrong, but the notion of ‘intentionally cultivating enemies’ seems pretty obviously ahistorical.
- xorcist 10mo ago
  It might be a reference to Netanyahu and other high ranking people of Likud who has supported of Hamas for decades, both directly and indirectly via Qatar. It is uncontroversial and there is even a well researched Wikipedia article, but for obvious reasons only include what has happened in the open. Not taking part of Israel's politics, it was a bit surprising that this hasn't been more controversial but politics in the entire region is complicated, I guess. After all, the corruption in the prime minister's office did cause protests when it was exposed so clearly people care.
  - bsaul 10mo ago
    [flagged]
    - matsemann 10mo ago
      No, virtually no one is supporting Hamas. Stop parroting that. Please allow me to be against genocide without accusing me of supporting a terrorist regime. It's dishonest. Thanks.
    - the_af 10mo ago
      This is not true. There are plenty of people horrified with both Israel and Hamas, and that while sympathizing with the plight of the Palestinians, think Hamas is hurting their chances of a peaceful solution. Many people think Israel's right-wing and Hamas need each other, a kind of symbiosis. (Netanyahu certainly needs Hamas to exist). Of course, the Israeli right wing wants to paint any opposition as pro Hamas anti semites. It's a time tested tactic.
    - j_maffe 10mo ago
      This is just some combination of a strawman and ad hominum. I'm sure you can come up with a better argument than that.

C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 10mo ago

> But I’d hope you’d fight for the safety of your family and neighbors. Thats literally all it means to be in the idf for most. This is a perpetual situation, given that Israel's pattern of territorial expansion is always military control over a new area, followed by settlement building. Since now there is a settlement with colonists living in it, now the same starting argument of "defending family and neighbours" applies, since you now need a "buffer zone" to keep the colonists safe, requiring more military control over a new area. Rinse and repeat, and Israelis are always in a situation to be forced to fight "for the safety of their family and neighbours". How convenient.

j_maffe 10mo ago

Well it looks like they derive some pleasure out of it: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer...

immibis 10mo ago

The way things are going right now, the IDF is trying to cause the total destruction of Israel. Making more enemies when you're already surrounded by enemies (that you made) is rarely a way to any kind of survival. There is only one thing still standing between Israel and complete annihilation, and that's an endless flood of US taxpayer dollars that is at risk of stopping any month now.