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Pope criticizes US bid to 'break apart' US-Europe alliance

65 points by sipofwater 10mo ago

sipofwater 10mo ago
Mirror for "Pope criticizes US bid to ‘break apart’ US-Europe alliance, insists on Europe role in Ukraine peace": https://archive.ph/TD5WA https://archive.ph/TD5WA
- AnimalMuppet 10mo ago
  Is a mirror needed? It's not paywalled for me...
burnt-resistor 10mo ago
When an aggressor and a super power claim they're offering a "peace process", they're actually colluding to offer a surrender process when they fail to include the defending party in good faith. It's complete bullshit. In diplomacy terms, whenever you hear "peace process" used in news media, mentally substitute "America's demands" because that's the most frequent reality. Trump is in Putin's pocket, the sky is blue, and nothing will change until Kyiv is able to sustain and expand hobbling of Russia's economy while resisting gamified "peace" strategic pauses; UA drone strikes on RU petrochem facilities are getting more effective over time.
- leobg 10mo ago
  I find it interesting that your comment centers around principles and justice. There are thousands of young people who are dying in trenches and blown to pieces by drones each week, and have been for the past three years. You don’t even mention them.
  - madspindel 10mo ago
    Yes, let's never forget that Russia is a terrorist state.
  - watwut 10mo ago
    Perfect solution is Russia stops sending them there and orders them to go home. Ukrainian one then remain home. And considering Russia does not intend to stop expansion, absent pressure on Russia, they will be eventually dying in Germany.
    - naian 10mo ago
      Perfect is the enemy of good.
      - watwut 10mo ago
        Russian expansion is not good. Rewarding genocide is not good.
  - burnt-resistor 10mo ago
    [flagged]
  - rightbyte 10mo ago
    There are a lot of romantics. I wonder if the tone was the same during the 1WW. It is silly.
  - derelicta 10mo ago
    Warsluts do not tend to be the one dying in those said wars.
  - AnimalMuppet 10mo ago
    Well, see, we learned nearly a century ago that when someone aggressively expands and you give in to them to maintain "peace in our time", you don't get peace for very long. You wind up with more dead bodies, not less. Fighting when it's needed leads to more dead this week than abject surrender would cause, but if history is any guide, it leads to fewer dead bodies this decade.
    - rightbyte 10mo ago
      "Someone"? Are you alluding to NATO or Russia here in the present? Hard to tell.
      - ben_w 10mo ago
        "peace in our time" is a famous quote, nearly a century ago: https://www.history.co.uk/this-day-in-history/30-september/chamberlain-declares-peace-in-our-time https://www.history.co.uk/this-day-in-history/30-september/c... What AnimalMuppet shows with the failure of "peace in our time" is how speaking softly only works in combination with a big stick, to paraphrase a different politician from a different continent around a generation earlier than "peace in our time".
        rightbyte 10mo ago
        Yes I know. The question is who they aimed at in the current day context.
    - leobg 10mo ago
      Wrong lesson from history. Go a bit further back. WW1. It’s easy to talk about “never appease an aggressor” when its someone else’s kid. Now it’s a story arch. Good vs evil. Entertainment! Like sports. You pick your team. But from the comfort of your tv, of course.
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
JohnnyLarue 10mo ago
[flagged]
- DaSHacka 10mo ago
  No way, I didn't know Putin used Hacker News!
general1465 10mo ago
It is also stupidly transparent attempt, which will create rally around the flag effect for EU - Sure EU has issues, but when you have two powers openly claiming that they are out to get you, you are not going to sleep, you will start barricading your house. Countries are not really intending to leave the EU, not even Hungary, because they know very well that big boys outside will turn them into their toy.
ta9000 10mo ago
This isn’t the US vs EU, it’s Trump vs EU. I don’t know anyone that thinks Russia is more of an ally than the EU.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
hmm37 10mo ago
Even if US seems like it's acting in bad faith here, I rather the Pope not step into politics of this sort and concentrate more on the religious realm. It seems like the papacy would be stepping backwards if it got more involved in politics/geopolitics again, and not simply looking for peace.
- watwut 10mo ago
  If Pope steered clear of politics, he would be just leaving a space for J.D. Vance who is literally trying to use religion to promote fascism. It is ok for pope to act as counterweight against cristo-fascism. Klerofascism is a thing and if pope does not want the catholic church going that way, he has to. Trump, J.D.Vance and Steven Miller dont get to pretend they speak for religion.
  - sillyfluke 10mo ago
    Yes, this is a simple point that possibly warrants exception to the rule that many people seem to dismiss too easily. Whether you agree with it or not, Trump is taking Europe to task for not standing strongly enough for Judeo-Christian values. When he says Europe is facing "civilization erasure", it's not like he is worried about the erasure of Islamic civilization. If you're weaponizing religion for your politics you shouldn't be surprised if the shepherd gets annoyed. It is a delicate dance regardless though.
- krapp 10mo ago
  Politics and religion are inextricably linked in the West, and as much as I wish it were otherwise Evangelical Christianity is the engine that drives American conservatism and foreign policy and the opinions of religious leaders like the Pope matter to millions of people. If the Republicans get to claim to be the party of Christian virtue and anointed by God then the Pope weighing in on American policy seems like fair game, even if the US is far more Protestant than Catholic. And "looking for peace" is no less a political stance than "crusade against the infidels."
- tim333 10mo ago
  The vatican got some grief for not criticising Hitler and hence making it easier to do holocausts and the like. Maybe they feel they should avoid that sort of thing?
tsoukase 10mo ago
I have a doubt if Trump's dehavior is really what is shows. Some of it might be an under the table US-EU artificial deal to promote big corp mutual interests, military expenses and public fear and compliance. I am suspicious after I realised that US bulling to Canada (aka 51th state) was made in order to keep, as a brave resistance, the same political party in government after Trudot's nosedive.

65 points by sipofwater 10mo ago

Mirror for "Pope criticizes US bid to ‘break apart’ US-Europe alliance, insists on Europe role in Ukraine peace": https://archive.ph/TD5WA https://archive.ph/TD5WA

AnimalMuppet 10mo ago
Is a mirror needed? It's not paywalled for me...

burnt-resistor 10mo ago

When an aggressor and a super power claim they're offering a "peace process", they're actually colluding to offer a surrender process when they fail to include the defending party in good faith. It's complete bullshit. In diplomacy terms, whenever you hear "peace process" used in news media, mentally substitute "America's demands" because that's the most frequent reality. Trump is in Putin's pocket, the sky is blue, and nothing will change until Kyiv is able to sustain and expand hobbling of Russia's economy while resisting gamified "peace" strategic pauses; UA drone strikes on RU petrochem facilities are getting more effective over time.

leobg 10mo ago
I find it interesting that your comment centers around principles and justice. There are thousands of young people who are dying in trenches and blown to pieces by drones each week, and have been for the past three years. You don’t even mention them.
- madspindel 10mo ago
  Yes, let's never forget that Russia is a terrorist state.
- watwut 10mo ago
  Perfect solution is Russia stops sending them there and orders them to go home. Ukrainian one then remain home. And considering Russia does not intend to stop expansion, absent pressure on Russia, they will be eventually dying in Germany.
  - naian 10mo ago
    Perfect is the enemy of good.
    - watwut 10mo ago
      Russian expansion is not good. Rewarding genocide is not good.
- burnt-resistor 10mo ago
  [flagged]
- rightbyte 10mo ago
  There are a lot of romantics. I wonder if the tone was the same during the 1WW. It is silly.
- derelicta 10mo ago
  Warsluts do not tend to be the one dying in those said wars.
- AnimalMuppet 10mo ago
  Well, see, we learned nearly a century ago that when someone aggressively expands and you give in to them to maintain "peace in our time", you don't get peace for very long. You wind up with more dead bodies, not less. Fighting when it's needed leads to more dead this week than abject surrender would cause, but if history is any guide, it leads to fewer dead bodies this decade.
  - rightbyte 10mo ago
    "Someone"? Are you alluding to NATO or Russia here in the present? Hard to tell.
    - ben_w 10mo ago
      "peace in our time" is a famous quote, nearly a century ago: https://www.history.co.uk/this-day-in-history/30-september/chamberlain-declares-peace-in-our-time https://www.history.co.uk/this-day-in-history/30-september/c... What AnimalMuppet shows with the failure of "peace in our time" is how speaking softly only works in combination with a big stick, to paraphrase a different politician from a different continent around a generation earlier than "peace in our time".
      - rightbyte 10mo ago
        Yes I know. The question is who they aimed at in the current day context.
  - leobg 10mo ago
    Wrong lesson from history. Go a bit further back. WW1. It’s easy to talk about “never appease an aggressor” when its someone else’s kid. Now it’s a story arch. Good vs evil. Entertainment! Like sports. You pick your team. But from the comfort of your tv, of course.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]

JohnnyLarue 10mo ago

[flagged]

DaSHacka 10mo ago
No way, I didn't know Putin used Hacker News!

general1465 10mo ago

It is also stupidly transparent attempt, which will create rally around the flag effect for EU - Sure EU has issues, but when you have two powers openly claiming that they are out to get you, you are not going to sleep, you will start barricading your house. Countries are not really intending to leave the EU, not even Hungary, because they know very well that big boys outside will turn them into their toy.

ta9000 10mo ago

This isn’t the US vs EU, it’s Trump vs EU. I don’t know anyone that thinks Russia is more of an ally than the EU.

deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]

hmm37 10mo ago

Even if US seems like it's acting in bad faith here, I rather the Pope not step into politics of this sort and concentrate more on the religious realm. It seems like the papacy would be stepping backwards if it got more involved in politics/geopolitics again, and not simply looking for peace.

watwut 10mo ago
If Pope steered clear of politics, he would be just leaving a space for J.D. Vance who is literally trying to use religion to promote fascism. It is ok for pope to act as counterweight against cristo-fascism. Klerofascism is a thing and if pope does not want the catholic church going that way, he has to. Trump, J.D.Vance and Steven Miller dont get to pretend they speak for religion.
- sillyfluke 10mo ago
  Yes, this is a simple point that possibly warrants exception to the rule that many people seem to dismiss too easily. Whether you agree with it or not, Trump is taking Europe to task for not standing strongly enough for Judeo-Christian values. When he says Europe is facing "civilization erasure", it's not like he is worried about the erasure of Islamic civilization. If you're weaponizing religion for your politics you shouldn't be surprised if the shepherd gets annoyed. It is a delicate dance regardless though.
krapp 10mo ago
Politics and religion are inextricably linked in the West, and as much as I wish it were otherwise Evangelical Christianity is the engine that drives American conservatism and foreign policy and the opinions of religious leaders like the Pope matter to millions of people. If the Republicans get to claim to be the party of Christian virtue and anointed by God then the Pope weighing in on American policy seems like fair game, even if the US is far more Protestant than Catholic. And "looking for peace" is no less a political stance than "crusade against the infidels."
tim333 10mo ago
The vatican got some grief for not criticising Hitler and hence making it easier to do holocausts and the like. Maybe they feel they should avoid that sort of thing?

tsoukase 10mo ago

I have a doubt if Trump's dehavior is really what is shows. Some of it might be an under the table US-EU artificial deal to promote big corp mutual interests, military expenses and public fear and compliance. I am suspicious after I realised that US bulling to Canada (aka 51th state) was made in order to keep, as a brave resistance, the same political party in government after Trudot's nosedive.