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How could that help? The fascists have bigger guns and more brownshirts. If you survive the initial encounter, you're on the run and an enemy of the state?

by quesera 10mo ago

honeycrispy 10mo ago
There was a protest against the election in Tanzania on October 29th where the police were ordered to gun down the protesters, this is a country that has strict gun laws. Hundreds died. One of the reasons that doesn't happen in America is because the protestors would promptly shoot back and there would be a rapid formation of a militia. Hard to do that when you don't have guns.
- quesera 10mo ago
  I really, really do not think that's one of the reasons it doesn't happen in America. In particular, the largest protests against American elections (in my life at least) have been populated by almost-certainly unarmed protesters. And there are many other countries with strict gun laws (i.e. not the US) where police don't fire upon crowds for any reason.
  - honeycrispy 10mo ago
    I think you have too much faith in humanity. It had never happened in Tanzania until recently. And I think you're right about them being initially unarmed, but most people do have guns at home.
    - quesera 10mo ago
      I'm depending on Americans to have a limit to their willingness to harm other citizens. I know that hasn't been much in evidence lately, and I know that American humans are no more special than any other humans. But we're starting from a very different place than, e.g., Tanzania. I predict reversion to the mean, not revolution. (It can be argued that what we're seeing right now is the reversion to the mean, which is a whole different cart of apples.)
  - rustcleaner 10mo ago
    >I really, really do not think that's one of the reasons it doesn't happen in America. It really, really is the biggest reason it doesn't happen.
- whoopdedo 10mo ago
  It does happen in America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
  - metalcrow 10mo ago
    But later on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge_standoff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge_standoff happened. It didn't end that well for Randy Weaver, but he did get to kill a US Marshal without jail time, and they are not happy to try that again.
  - quesera 10mo ago
    Kent State was a very different America, a long time ago, and the reaction was immense and swift. I won't argue that there will not be isolated incidents of horror (too late). I argue that the practice will not take hold and become normalized. If a new Kent State happens, I depend on Americans to respond immensely and swiftly again. I'd prefer a catalyzing event without loss of life, of course.
    - krapp 10mo ago
      >Kent State was a very different America, a long time ago, and the reaction was immense and swift. Was it? An American political culture dominated by Christians and war hawks paranoid about the influence of "cultural marxism" in academia and whipped up into a moral panic about the "degeneracy" of feminism and homosexuality, with pervasive censorship of criticism of American foreign policy and the deployment of militarized police in the streets doesn't seem very different than what we have now. >If a new Kent State happens, I depend on Americans to respond immensely and swiftly again. I think you deeply misunderstand which side of the fence American gun owners and militias tend to be on and just how normalized the rhetoric and expectation of violence has already gotten. If a new Kent State happens they'll say "that was for Charlie Kirk" and dance in the streets.
      - quesera 10mo ago
        These are all important points, which I can't refute individually. I do still believe that the whole is less than the sum of the parts, though. The batshit crazy doesn't have critical mass generally, but certainly does in some areas. If things get ugly, I expect it to be localized and temporary. I hope to be right. :-/
metalcrow 10mo ago
If the fascists do outnumber you and like minded people who disagree with them, then sadly your views are just the minority, and there's nothing to do besides leave the country. But that is a strong claim, it requires that >50% of Americans are fascists or are neutral to them.
- quesera 10mo ago
  Not all citizens are brownshirts. The fascists are more mobilized. But they are, and always will be, a small minority. They might still dominate situations or periods, though.

How could that help? The fascists have bigger guns and more brownshirts. If you survive the initial encounter, you're on the run and an enemy of the state?

by quesera 10mo ago

How could that help? The fascists have bigger guns and more brownshirts. If you survive the initial encounter, you're on the run and an enemy of the state?

honeycrispy 10mo ago

There was a protest against the election in Tanzania on October 29th where the police were ordered to gun down the protesters, this is a country that has strict gun laws. Hundreds died. One of the reasons that doesn't happen in America is because the protestors would promptly shoot back and there would be a rapid formation of a militia. Hard to do that when you don't have guns.

quesera 10mo ago
I really, really do not think that's one of the reasons it doesn't happen in America. In particular, the largest protests against American elections (in my life at least) have been populated by almost-certainly unarmed protesters. And there are many other countries with strict gun laws (i.e. not the US) where police don't fire upon crowds for any reason.
- honeycrispy 10mo ago
  I think you have too much faith in humanity. It had never happened in Tanzania until recently. And I think you're right about them being initially unarmed, but most people do have guns at home.
  - quesera 10mo ago
    I'm depending on Americans to have a limit to their willingness to harm other citizens. I know that hasn't been much in evidence lately, and I know that American humans are no more special than any other humans. But we're starting from a very different place than, e.g., Tanzania. I predict reversion to the mean, not revolution. (It can be argued that what we're seeing right now is the reversion to the mean, which is a whole different cart of apples.)
- rustcleaner 10mo ago
  >I really, really do not think that's one of the reasons it doesn't happen in America. It really, really is the biggest reason it doesn't happen.
whoopdedo 10mo ago
It does happen in America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
- metalcrow 10mo ago
  But later on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge_standoff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge_standoff happened. It didn't end that well for Randy Weaver, but he did get to kill a US Marshal without jail time, and they are not happy to try that again.
- quesera 10mo ago
  Kent State was a very different America, a long time ago, and the reaction was immense and swift. I won't argue that there will not be isolated incidents of horror (too late). I argue that the practice will not take hold and become normalized. If a new Kent State happens, I depend on Americans to respond immensely and swiftly again. I'd prefer a catalyzing event without loss of life, of course.
  - krapp 10mo ago
    >Kent State was a very different America, a long time ago, and the reaction was immense and swift. Was it? An American political culture dominated by Christians and war hawks paranoid about the influence of "cultural marxism" in academia and whipped up into a moral panic about the "degeneracy" of feminism and homosexuality, with pervasive censorship of criticism of American foreign policy and the deployment of militarized police in the streets doesn't seem very different than what we have now. >If a new Kent State happens, I depend on Americans to respond immensely and swiftly again. I think you deeply misunderstand which side of the fence American gun owners and militias tend to be on and just how normalized the rhetoric and expectation of violence has already gotten. If a new Kent State happens they'll say "that was for Charlie Kirk" and dance in the streets.
    - quesera 10mo ago
      These are all important points, which I can't refute individually. I do still believe that the whole is less than the sum of the parts, though. The batshit crazy doesn't have critical mass generally, but certainly does in some areas. If things get ugly, I expect it to be localized and temporary. I hope to be right. :-/

metalcrow 10mo ago

If the fascists do outnumber you and like minded people who disagree with them, then sadly your views are just the minority, and there's nothing to do besides leave the country. But that is a strong claim, it requires that >50% of Americans are fascists or are neutral to them.

quesera 10mo ago
Not all citizens are brownshirts. The fascists are more mobilized. But they are, and always will be, a small minority. They might still dominate situations or periods, though.