6 ms·

Here in Ontario, residentially we pay about 0.09 USD per kWh at night and 0.18 USD with demand peak pricing on weekday afternoons. Or if you have flat rate it'

by retrac 10mo ago

Here in Ontario, residentially we pay about 0.09 USD per kWh at night and 0.18 USD with demand peak pricing on weekday afternoons. Or if you have flat rate it's about 0.13 USD per kWh. This is considered very expensive by Canadian standards and it's due to our nuclear power program where about 55% of electricity is from nuclear, the rest from a mix of wind/hydro/solar/biofuel and gas. The increased price during the day is due to the need to burn a bit of gas at peak demand. The grid is otherwise nearly carbon neutral, and the long-term plan is to phase out the gas with a mix of wind, nuclear and pumped storage. We pay less in practice than the rates given above for power, because the government also subsidizes it. But even without that I understand such rates would be relatively cheap in most European countries.

tokai 10mo ago
Relative cheap? More like ridiculously cheap.
throw0101a 10mo ago
> Here in Ontario, residentially we pay about 0.09 USD per kWh at night and 0.18 USD with demand peak pricing on weekday afternoons. Provincial regulatory report from 2025-2026: * https://oeb.ca/sites/default/files/rpp-price-report-20251017.pdf https://oeb.ca/sites/default/files/rpp-price-report-20251017... Search for "RPP Price Report" for previous ones: * https://www.oeb.ca/consultations-and-projects/policy-initiatives-and-consultations/regulated-price-plan-rpp https://www.oeb.ca/consultations-and-projects/policy-initiat...
belorn 10mo ago
Is that the commercial price to the end customer with tax and connection fees, or is it the gross price at the power exchange?
- nine_k 10mo ago
  End customer tariffs, I suppose. IDK if they include delivery. Bulk prices at exchanges are way lower, like 2.2¢ per kWh: https://www.ieso.ca/Power-Data/Price-Overview/Ontario-Market-Prices https://www.ieso.ca/Power-Data/Price-Overview/Ontario-Market...
- retrac 10mo ago
  Consumer price of the energy. Doesn't include connection fees, but those are a minority of the cost. Includes special energy taxes. But not sales tax. For a real example, I'm on flat rate and if I use 1000 kWh my monthly bill will be 211 CAD (effective rate 0.21 CAD / 0.13 EUR per kWh) including taxes, connection, delivery, everything, but without subsidy. The amount I pay after the subsidy is applied would be less at 165 CAD.
  - hvb2 10mo ago
    Is the subsidy just to lower cost of living for the lowest incomes? Would be very curious about the rationale for it if not. Why would you subsidize increased energy use
    - scotty79 10mo ago
      The argument against deregulation of energy prices is that poor people won't be able to afford it. But if you create a program that subsidizes some reasonable amount of energy per person per month the price of electricity can go as high as it needs to. I don't know if that was rationale in Canada but it's one possible rationale why government might want to aubsiduze energy usage.
    - retrac 10mo ago
      It applies to most private residential and small-scale business electric use. Rationale would be getting quite political, as you might imagine. But I suppose there are several justifications that are given. One is to offset the cost to the consumer for phasing out fossil fuels. Coal has been shut down and wind and storage and new nuclear is being built. Politically it has been presented as a matter of fairness; poor people are least able to pay for increases or to retrofit. A kind of wealth redistribution. (Though when you remember large corporately-run farms are included in the subsidy it's maybe not the most progressive form of redistribution.) In Quebec where they have a great surplus of hydroelectric they also partly subsidize residential electricity with the profits of the surplus sale to the United States. The energy is so cheap there than resistive heating is cheaper than natural gas for home heating. Avoiding dependence on oil and gas imported from either the US or western Canada, or rather trying to lessen that dependence, is a standing issue for both Quebec and Ontario.
ViewTrick1002 10mo ago
Existing nuclear power is something to keep around as long as it is safe and needed. The problem is that new built western nuclear power requires ~18 cents/kWh (Vogtle, FV3, HPC etc.) when running at 100% 24/7 all year around, excluding backup, transmission costs and taxes. Now try sell that electricity to a home owner with solar PV and maybe a battery and you will get laughed out of the room almost the entire year. A firming new built nuclear plant with ruinously high CAPEX and acceptable OPEX is economic lunacy. This does not even take into account that new built nuclear power requires ~15-20 years from political decision to working plants. As soon as new built nuclear power’s costs and timelines are confronted with reality it just does not work out.
- mpweiher 10mo ago
  Where are you getting 18 cents/kWh? Lazard? Anyway, even if that were correct numbers, it would misleading on several fronts, as the only new western reactors were unrepresentative FOAK builds, and also troubled beyond just regular FOAK status. Furthermore, the costs tend to be calculated for the period while they are repaying the loans, so it's mostly capital costs. Once the plant is paid off, the price drops dramatically. The average build time is currently 6.5 years, median slightly less, trend downwards.
  - ViewTrick1002 10mo ago
    The currently proposed handout from tax money for the French EPR2 fleet is 11 cents/kWh and interest free loans. Sum freely. That is with the first reactor coming online 2038 with a perfectly executed project. I suggest you stop referencing unsourced statistics when the topic at hand is new built european nuclear power. Edit - toned it down
    - credit_guy 10mo ago
      > I suggest you stop lying Was this really necessary?
    - mpweiher 10mo ago
      I asked you where you were getting the 18 cents/kWh hour from. Which you did not answer. And then you accuse me of referencing unsourced statistics and lying. Hmm... The 6.5 years figure is from here: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/nuclear-construction-time https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/nuclear-constructi... "Current european nuclear" is completely atypical and unrepresentative. The numbers are too low to be statistically significant anyhow, but on top of that they were all FOAK builds, all of a single (base) design that has been deemed too difficult to build by its manufacturer and thus discontinued, and mostly built in countries with little recent nuclear experience. The HPC build, for example, was very explicitly intended to build up the UK nuclear industry, which was a significant part of the cost.
apatheticonion 10mo ago
Cries in $0.45/kWh AUD (metro Sydney). Best I've found is $0.37/kWh
- rstuart4133 10mo ago
  I was curious, so I asked an AI (Gemini) to compare the wholesale price of electricity in Ontario vs Sydney, in Canadian dollars, including any subsidies in the price. The reasoning is the wholesale price best reflects the cost of production. The outcome was surprisingly close. Sydney seemed to be a little more expensive, with a spot market average of CAD$73/MWh vs CAD$65/MWh. A wash really. I don't know what is going on with the retail prices. My rule of thumb is multiply by 3, but your multiple is closer to 4.5. I live in Brisbane for example, where the average price is $100/MWh and we pay around $.30/kWh retail. Have you looked at https://www.energymadeeasy.gov.au/ https://www.energymadeeasy.gov.au/ ?

by retrac 10mo ago

tokai 10mo ago

Relative cheap? More like ridiculously cheap.

throw0101a 10mo ago

> Here in Ontario, residentially we pay about 0.09 USD per kWh at night and 0.18 USD with demand peak pricing on weekday afternoons. Provincial regulatory report from 2025-2026: * https://oeb.ca/sites/default/files/rpp-price-report-20251017.pdf https://oeb.ca/sites/default/files/rpp-price-report-20251017... Search for "RPP Price Report" for previous ones: * https://www.oeb.ca/consultations-and-projects/policy-initiatives-and-consultations/regulated-price-plan-rpp https://www.oeb.ca/consultations-and-projects/policy-initiat...

belorn 10mo ago

Is that the commercial price to the end customer with tax and connection fees, or is it the gross price at the power exchange?

nine_k 10mo ago
End customer tariffs, I suppose. IDK if they include delivery. Bulk prices at exchanges are way lower, like 2.2¢ per kWh: https://www.ieso.ca/Power-Data/Price-Overview/Ontario-Market-Prices https://www.ieso.ca/Power-Data/Price-Overview/Ontario-Market...
retrac 10mo ago
Consumer price of the energy. Doesn't include connection fees, but those are a minority of the cost. Includes special energy taxes. But not sales tax. For a real example, I'm on flat rate and if I use 1000 kWh my monthly bill will be 211 CAD (effective rate 0.21 CAD / 0.13 EUR per kWh) including taxes, connection, delivery, everything, but without subsidy. The amount I pay after the subsidy is applied would be less at 165 CAD.
- hvb2 10mo ago
  Is the subsidy just to lower cost of living for the lowest incomes? Would be very curious about the rationale for it if not. Why would you subsidize increased energy use
  - scotty79 10mo ago
    The argument against deregulation of energy prices is that poor people won't be able to afford it. But if you create a program that subsidizes some reasonable amount of energy per person per month the price of electricity can go as high as it needs to. I don't know if that was rationale in Canada but it's one possible rationale why government might want to aubsiduze energy usage.
  - retrac 10mo ago
    It applies to most private residential and small-scale business electric use. Rationale would be getting quite political, as you might imagine. But I suppose there are several justifications that are given. One is to offset the cost to the consumer for phasing out fossil fuels. Coal has been shut down and wind and storage and new nuclear is being built. Politically it has been presented as a matter of fairness; poor people are least able to pay for increases or to retrofit. A kind of wealth redistribution. (Though when you remember large corporately-run farms are included in the subsidy it's maybe not the most progressive form of redistribution.) In Quebec where they have a great surplus of hydroelectric they also partly subsidize residential electricity with the profits of the surplus sale to the United States. The energy is so cheap there than resistive heating is cheaper than natural gas for home heating. Avoiding dependence on oil and gas imported from either the US or western Canada, or rather trying to lessen that dependence, is a standing issue for both Quebec and Ontario.

ViewTrick1002 10mo ago

Existing nuclear power is something to keep around as long as it is safe and needed. The problem is that new built western nuclear power requires ~18 cents/kWh (Vogtle, FV3, HPC etc.) when running at 100% 24/7 all year around, excluding backup, transmission costs and taxes. Now try sell that electricity to a home owner with solar PV and maybe a battery and you will get laughed out of the room almost the entire year. A firming new built nuclear plant with ruinously high CAPEX and acceptable OPEX is economic lunacy. This does not even take into account that new built nuclear power requires ~15-20 years from political decision to working plants. As soon as new built nuclear power’s costs and timelines are confronted with reality it just does not work out.

mpweiher 10mo ago
Where are you getting 18 cents/kWh? Lazard? Anyway, even if that were correct numbers, it would misleading on several fronts, as the only new western reactors were unrepresentative FOAK builds, and also troubled beyond just regular FOAK status. Furthermore, the costs tend to be calculated for the period while they are repaying the loans, so it's mostly capital costs. Once the plant is paid off, the price drops dramatically. The average build time is currently 6.5 years, median slightly less, trend downwards.
- ViewTrick1002 10mo ago
  The currently proposed handout from tax money for the French EPR2 fleet is 11 cents/kWh and interest free loans. Sum freely. That is with the first reactor coming online 2038 with a perfectly executed project. I suggest you stop referencing unsourced statistics when the topic at hand is new built european nuclear power. Edit - toned it down
  - credit_guy 10mo ago
    > I suggest you stop lying Was this really necessary?
  - mpweiher 10mo ago
    I asked you where you were getting the 18 cents/kWh hour from. Which you did not answer. And then you accuse me of referencing unsourced statistics and lying. Hmm... The 6.5 years figure is from here: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/nuclear-construction-time https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/nuclear-constructi... "Current european nuclear" is completely atypical and unrepresentative. The numbers are too low to be statistically significant anyhow, but on top of that they were all FOAK builds, all of a single (base) design that has been deemed too difficult to build by its manufacturer and thus discontinued, and mostly built in countries with little recent nuclear experience. The HPC build, for example, was very explicitly intended to build up the UK nuclear industry, which was a significant part of the cost.

apatheticonion 10mo ago

Cries in $0.45/kWh AUD (metro Sydney). Best I've found is $0.37/kWh

rstuart4133 10mo ago
I was curious, so I asked an AI (Gemini) to compare the wholesale price of electricity in Ontario vs Sydney, in Canadian dollars, including any subsidies in the price. The reasoning is the wholesale price best reflects the cost of production. The outcome was surprisingly close. Sydney seemed to be a little more expensive, with a spot market average of CAD$73/MWh vs CAD$65/MWh. A wash really. I don't know what is going on with the retail prices. My rule of thumb is multiply by 3, but your multiple is closer to 4.5. I live in Brisbane for example, where the average price is $100/MWh and we pay around $.30/kWh retail. Have you looked at https://www.energymadeeasy.gov.au/ https://www.energymadeeasy.gov.au/ ?