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Employees being paid less than they would prefer to get paid for a given type of work does not imply "unfair exploitation"

vkou 10mo ago
Employers having to pay more than they'd prefer to pay for a given type of work/provide better working conditions does not imply "unfair exploitation" of the company by the union, either. It's just a market reaching equilibrium. It's always weird how employees are forever to be expected to be at the mercy of market forces much greater than they are, while employers have to be shielded from them.
- seneca 10mo ago
  > It's just a market reaching equilibrium. It's always weird how employees are forever to be expected to be at the mercy of market forces much greater than they are, while employers have to be shielded from them. It's not a market, at all. It's only possible because of federal law that prevents a business from firing employees for unionizing. If it were a market, the business would have to choose to keep unionzed workers voluntarily. The fact that they don't means it's more like the business being held hostage. The equivalent would be employees being required by law to stay at a company they don't want to work for. Essentially indentured servitude.
  - vkou 10mo ago
    That argument is bullshit, and I'll tell you why. An employer can't fire people for unionizing, but there's no law that requires them to accept a union's negotiating demands... Or prevents them from bringing in scabs if the union chooses to strike without pay. The existence of a union by itself doesn't do anything. The only power that a union actually has is not showing up to work. And when the union doesn't show up to work, the employer is free to hire someone else to do the work. It's wild to comparing people not showing up to work because an employment agreement hasn't been reached to 'being held hostage'.
    - mlrtime 10mo ago
      >no law that requires them to accept a union's negotiating demands And there shouldn't be >Or prevents them from bringing in scabs if the union chooses to strike without pay. The company should have this right.
      - vkou 10mo ago
        They do have this right. Hiring scabs is legal.
meheleventyone 10mo ago
That’s a fair opinion but obviously it’s the opinion of the employees and their ability to freely associate that let’s them collectively organise.
- appreciatorBus 10mo ago
  I support that freedom! I just think the idea that all employee-employer relationships are exploitative is wrong. It feels derived from Marx's long discredited labour theory of value. It is of course possible for an employer to treat employees very poorly and arguably exploit them. But it is also possible for employers to lose money for years such that employees are effectively exploiting the employer. I can imagine unions being a great force of good in the world, but whether they are or are not is largely down to how they behave, just like individuals, corporations and other organizations & institutions. A union that bargains collectively for it's members sounds very straightforward and logical. A union like the NYC hotel union that actively lobbies for fewer hotels feels insane.
nickthegreek 10mo ago
Pay is a but a single way in which an employer can attempt to unfairly exploit you. The rest tends to hide behind culture and opportunity. Unpaid overtime framed as dedication, scope creep framed as growth, on-call expectations framed as ownership, understaffing framed as efficiency. You might find these game developers being abused by a few or all of these examples. Exploitive companies can borrow against your pride, your fear of falling behind, and your desire to be seen as competent until your baseline becomes always available.
- mlrtime 10mo ago
  Do you think Salaried software devs should have overtime? Even if paid well (multiples of median salaries across industries).
  - nickthegreek 10mo ago
    I’d entrain notions past certain thresholds (60+ hr weeks for months on end seems excessive for instance) should come with certain protections/minimum extras of some sort. A few guardrails, even if only to protection extremes seems pragmatic and not too controversial imo.

vkou 10mo ago

Employers having to pay more than they'd prefer to pay for a given type of work/provide better working conditions does not imply "unfair exploitation" of the company by the union, either. It's just a market reaching equilibrium. It's always weird how employees are forever to be expected to be at the mercy of market forces much greater than they are, while employers have to be shielded from them.

seneca 10mo ago
> It's just a market reaching equilibrium. It's always weird how employees are forever to be expected to be at the mercy of market forces much greater than they are, while employers have to be shielded from them. It's not a market, at all. It's only possible because of federal law that prevents a business from firing employees for unionizing. If it were a market, the business would have to choose to keep unionzed workers voluntarily. The fact that they don't means it's more like the business being held hostage. The equivalent would be employees being required by law to stay at a company they don't want to work for. Essentially indentured servitude.
- vkou 10mo ago
  That argument is bullshit, and I'll tell you why. An employer can't fire people for unionizing, but there's no law that requires them to accept a union's negotiating demands... Or prevents them from bringing in scabs if the union chooses to strike without pay. The existence of a union by itself doesn't do anything. The only power that a union actually has is not showing up to work. And when the union doesn't show up to work, the employer is free to hire someone else to do the work. It's wild to comparing people not showing up to work because an employment agreement hasn't been reached to 'being held hostage'.
  - mlrtime 10mo ago
    >no law that requires them to accept a union's negotiating demands And there shouldn't be >Or prevents them from bringing in scabs if the union chooses to strike without pay. The company should have this right.
    - vkou 10mo ago
      They do have this right. Hiring scabs is legal.

meheleventyone 10mo ago

That’s a fair opinion but obviously it’s the opinion of the employees and their ability to freely associate that let’s them collectively organise.

appreciatorBus 10mo ago
I support that freedom! I just think the idea that all employee-employer relationships are exploitative is wrong. It feels derived from Marx's long discredited labour theory of value. It is of course possible for an employer to treat employees very poorly and arguably exploit them. But it is also possible for employers to lose money for years such that employees are effectively exploiting the employer. I can imagine unions being a great force of good in the world, but whether they are or are not is largely down to how they behave, just like individuals, corporations and other organizations & institutions. A union that bargains collectively for it's members sounds very straightforward and logical. A union like the NYC hotel union that actively lobbies for fewer hotels feels insane.

nickthegreek 10mo ago

Pay is a but a single way in which an employer can attempt to unfairly exploit you. The rest tends to hide behind culture and opportunity. Unpaid overtime framed as dedication, scope creep framed as growth, on-call expectations framed as ownership, understaffing framed as efficiency. You might find these game developers being abused by a few or all of these examples. Exploitive companies can borrow against your pride, your fear of falling behind, and your desire to be seen as competent until your baseline becomes always available.

mlrtime 10mo ago
Do you think Salaried software devs should have overtime? Even if paid well (multiples of median salaries across industries).
- nickthegreek 10mo ago
  I’d entrain notions past certain thresholds (60+ hr weeks for months on end seems excessive for instance) should come with certain protections/minimum extras of some sort. A few guardrails, even if only to protection extremes seems pragmatic and not too controversial imo.