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The undermining of science has given people like this more of a voice. US leadership has got to the point where science is largely disregarded and leaders just

The undermining of science has given people like this more of a voice. US leadership has got to the point where science is largely disregarded and leaders just impose whatever they think is true regardless of facts.

gibralterwassel 10mo ago
With respect, I think that’s a stretch. Scientific method is practical. Scientific fact is a belief system, not unlike religion. This doesn’t undermine science, it’s just stating what these things are. Scientific belief can be helpful. These silly beliefs though can be harmful as is the case with Chlorine Dioxide and that horse deworming medicine they said would cure Covid. Don’t confuse or try to link these things together. The reason that the government is now full of idiots is that people voted those idiots in. It wasn’t due to clarity that science is part belief system.
- saulpw 10mo ago
  Why do you think people voted these idiots in? In large part it's due to a distrust of science and rationality, "the system of the elites". Don't tell me that I need to vaccinate my kids! I'll cure my pancreatic cancer naturopathologically.
  - WarOnPrivacy 10mo ago
    > Why do you think people voted these idiots in? In my unbroken experience, they possess a demonstrated ability to believe in trivially disproven lies.
    - bloomingeek 10mo ago
      And the reason for believing these lies is because it's easier to listen to disgraced news outlets instead of reading a book or asking questions. It's a double edged sword: duped on one side and willful ignorance on the other. Some might say, who cares about what idiots think? Well, these idiots get one vote, just like the rest of us.
      - WarOnPrivacy 10mo ago
        > And the reason for believing these lies is because it's easier to listen to disgraced news outlets instead of reading a book or asking questions. If it was just laziness, their belief wouldn't persist in the face of better information. Willfully clasping onto an absurd premise this way strongly implies to me there is some sub-optimal psychology in play. There is a needful relationship inside that is being sustained (at a starvation level) by these exploitive external forces.
        bloomingeek 10mo ago
        Your response, to me, is profound. I've lived in a deeply red voting state (OK) all my life. I never could understand how voters could vote against their best interests and to the harm of others. Perhaps your "sub-optimal psychology in play" is a reasonable answer.
        WarOnPrivacy 10mo ago
        I'm a recovering conservative. I've had some time to reflect.
  - antiration 10mo ago
    You can certainly side with Descartes and believe in rationalism, or you can study David Hume and understand those beliefs for what they are. You can still have and respect beliefs, but distinguishing fact from belief is purely in the realm of philosophical debate. That doesn’t mean you have to accept absence of absolute truth or facts, but there is much we don’t know and that we think we know but we don’t, and that is logical and illogical. Life is dichotomy.
    - saulpw 10mo ago
      There is a huge chasm between superstition and transcendence. Rationality is limited, to be sure, but I'll take it over MAHA and tariffs any day.
- mrinterweb 10mo ago
  I mean undermining of science in the sense of popular opinion. These politicians actively denigrate, de-fund, ignore science. Unfortunately, these same politicians were popular enough to gain power. They continue to attack science and treat science as if science and those who value it are their enemy.
everforward 10mo ago
I think it's more fundamental than that: science education has gotten so bad that people miss what should be pretty clear red flags. The hydroxychloroquine debacle is one thing because there's no way as a layman to gauge that. It's still wrong, but I understand that people were worried and there's no intuitive route to "this won't help". This feels like something where even laymen should be skeptical. Baseline, disinfectants are generally not medicine. Really, I would hope our education system was good enough that people hear "chlorinated disinfectant" and can jump to "probably an oxidizer and very bad for living things".
- biophysboy 10mo ago
  I sort of think the hydroxychloroquine debacle was a "choose your own experts" situation.
- tzs 10mo ago
  Hydroxychloroquine is definitely different from most of the bogus medical stuff going around. When hydroxychloroquine was first proposed for COVID there was actually reason to think it might help. It is known to interfere with one of the mechanisms that COVID uses to enter cell membranes. The FDA in the US and equivalent regulators in many other countries gave it an emergency use authorization. A few months later with more data it was found that it had some bad side effects and that it wasn't actually useful against COVID (most of the time COVID used a mechanism other than the one that hydroxychloroquine interfered with to enter cells).
wakawaka28 10mo ago
No, you are witnessing democracy in action. People can disagree about "facts" and that is ok. People need to stop trying to impose things like this on others, have conversations with people they disagree with, and otherwise mind their business instead of advocating for a different group to impose on everyone whatever they think is true, disregarding individual autonomy and basic liberties.

gibralterwassel 10mo ago

With respect, I think that’s a stretch. Scientific method is practical. Scientific fact is a belief system, not unlike religion. This doesn’t undermine science, it’s just stating what these things are. Scientific belief can be helpful. These silly beliefs though can be harmful as is the case with Chlorine Dioxide and that horse deworming medicine they said would cure Covid. Don’t confuse or try to link these things together. The reason that the government is now full of idiots is that people voted those idiots in. It wasn’t due to clarity that science is part belief system.

saulpw 10mo ago
Why do you think people voted these idiots in? In large part it's due to a distrust of science and rationality, "the system of the elites". Don't tell me that I need to vaccinate my kids! I'll cure my pancreatic cancer naturopathologically.
- WarOnPrivacy 10mo ago
  > Why do you think people voted these idiots in? In my unbroken experience, they possess a demonstrated ability to believe in trivially disproven lies.
  - bloomingeek 10mo ago
    And the reason for believing these lies is because it's easier to listen to disgraced news outlets instead of reading a book or asking questions. It's a double edged sword: duped on one side and willful ignorance on the other. Some might say, who cares about what idiots think? Well, these idiots get one vote, just like the rest of us.
    - WarOnPrivacy 10mo ago
      > And the reason for believing these lies is because it's easier to listen to disgraced news outlets instead of reading a book or asking questions. If it was just laziness, their belief wouldn't persist in the face of better information. Willfully clasping onto an absurd premise this way strongly implies to me there is some sub-optimal psychology in play. There is a needful relationship inside that is being sustained (at a starvation level) by these exploitive external forces.
      - bloomingeek 10mo ago
        Your response, to me, is profound. I've lived in a deeply red voting state (OK) all my life. I never could understand how voters could vote against their best interests and to the harm of others. Perhaps your "sub-optimal psychology in play" is a reasonable answer.
        WarOnPrivacy 10mo ago
        I'm a recovering conservative. I've had some time to reflect.
- antiration 10mo ago
  You can certainly side with Descartes and believe in rationalism, or you can study David Hume and understand those beliefs for what they are. You can still have and respect beliefs, but distinguishing fact from belief is purely in the realm of philosophical debate. That doesn’t mean you have to accept absence of absolute truth or facts, but there is much we don’t know and that we think we know but we don’t, and that is logical and illogical. Life is dichotomy.
  - saulpw 10mo ago
    There is a huge chasm between superstition and transcendence. Rationality is limited, to be sure, but I'll take it over MAHA and tariffs any day.
mrinterweb 10mo ago
I mean undermining of science in the sense of popular opinion. These politicians actively denigrate, de-fund, ignore science. Unfortunately, these same politicians were popular enough to gain power. They continue to attack science and treat science as if science and those who value it are their enemy.

everforward 10mo ago

I think it's more fundamental than that: science education has gotten so bad that people miss what should be pretty clear red flags. The hydroxychloroquine debacle is one thing because there's no way as a layman to gauge that. It's still wrong, but I understand that people were worried and there's no intuitive route to "this won't help". This feels like something where even laymen should be skeptical. Baseline, disinfectants are generally not medicine. Really, I would hope our education system was good enough that people hear "chlorinated disinfectant" and can jump to "probably an oxidizer and very bad for living things".

biophysboy 10mo ago
I sort of think the hydroxychloroquine debacle was a "choose your own experts" situation.
tzs 10mo ago
Hydroxychloroquine is definitely different from most of the bogus medical stuff going around. When hydroxychloroquine was first proposed for COVID there was actually reason to think it might help. It is known to interfere with one of the mechanisms that COVID uses to enter cell membranes. The FDA in the US and equivalent regulators in many other countries gave it an emergency use authorization. A few months later with more data it was found that it had some bad side effects and that it wasn't actually useful against COVID (most of the time COVID used a mechanism other than the one that hydroxychloroquine interfered with to enter cells).

wakawaka28 10mo ago

No, you are witnessing democracy in action. People can disagree about "facts" and that is ok. People need to stop trying to impose things like this on others, have conversations with people they disagree with, and otherwise mind their business instead of advocating for a different group to impose on everyone whatever they think is true, disregarding individual autonomy and basic liberties.