4 ms·

Japan law opening phone app stores to go into effect

185 points by shlip 10mo ago

shlip 10mo ago
JFTC's full 'Mobile Software Competition Act Guidelines' are available here : https://www.jftc.go.jp/file/MSCA_Guidelines_tentative_translation.pdf https://www.jftc.go.jp/file/MSCA_Guidelines_tentative_transl... Curious to see how Apple and Google are going to circumvent this.
- madeofpalk 10mo ago
  How is it different to what Apple’s done in the EU, with allowing for third party app stores there.
- idle_zealot 10mo ago
  My admittedly amateur reading of this is that while it does promote competition, it also explicitly allows what Apple is pulling in the EU with its signing/review requirements for non-App Store applications. So no need to circumvent, they still retain control over what code is allowed to run on iPhones, albeit subject to restrictions on what reasoning they're allowed to use to refuse to sign an app.
ChrisArchitect 10mo ago
Some background: Japan to open up Apple and Google app stores to competition (2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36368735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36368735 Japan enacts law to promote competition in smartphone app stores (2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40662176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40662176 iOS 26.2 to allow third-party app stores in Japan ahead of regulatory deadline (Nov 2025) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45822302 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45822302
websiteapi 10mo ago
Sony and Nintendo stores are still closed I see lol
- socalgal2 10mo ago
  Sony and Nintendo only sell games. They don't gate access to banks, investments, health insurance, auto insurance, news, movies, social media, car control apps, appliance apps, grocery stores, e-commerce, etc... That's not to say Sony and Nintendo shouldn't be opened too but their impact is much smaller (game devs) than Apple (nearly all businesses)
  - websiteapi 10mo ago
    Apple didn’t start that way though. Better to open it up now no? Also, a better law would be making the web first class, not adding more stores, with other gatekeepers…
    - ghurtado 10mo ago
      > Also, a better law would be No, the better law is the one that exists. Yours doesn't.
      - websiteapi 10mo ago
        Laws aren’t inherently good though… we will see what this does for Japan, I guess.
      - bloppe 10mo ago
        Are you implying that laws should never be changed?
  - dangus 10mo ago
    It should be pointed out that they have way less of a monopoly on the market and way more gaming alternatives exist than Apple and Google. Apple, Google. Two app stores that are basically necessary for existing in the modern world with a smartphone, which include apps covering Japanese government services. In the gaming space, you’ve got PlayStation Store, Xbox Store, Nintendo eShop, Steam, Epic Game Store, GOG, a bazillion publisher storefronts, Apple and Google (again), Itch.io, physical media for the big 3 consoles at dozens of brick and mortar retailers, or even installing games directly with no store at all (Minecraft originated from its own online purchase portal).
Mathnerd314 10mo ago
how does this interact with Google's push to sign all apps?
- idle_zealot 10mo ago
  It doesn't. The law explicitly allows platform owners to require a verification/vetting process for applications, though it does limit the grounds on which Google is allowed to refuse to sign apps.
pzo 10mo ago
It seems we in EU got the worst implementation for apple malicious compliance. It should have been similar like this one Japan from the beginning.
- extraduder_ire 10mo ago
  How does Apple's implementation in Japan differ from their EU one? TFA doesn't have many details that I see.
linuxhansl 10mo ago
Nice. Someone is doing something. Apple's app store monopoly together with a 30% commission is a modern form of way-laying. Meanwhile Google is trying to go the opposite way with mandatory developer registration/verification. In the US we will likely let them. Who needs freedom if there is money to make (and Google is just making a fake security argument.) It shouldn't be that hard to do with my phone what I want, including accepting the consequences of my actions.
- esperent 10mo ago
  > a modern form of way-laying. The best phrase I've heard used to describe this is "techno feudalism".
- musicale 10mo ago
  > Apple's app store monopoly together with a 30% commission is a modern form of way-laying Most of the revenue from the App Store is from games (often in-app purchases from "free to play" games), so it's not surprising that they charge the same 30% platform fee that Nintendo charges. Epic would of course like to pay lower platform fees to Apple for Fortnite than they pay to Nintendo (or Google) for Fortnite.
tekacs 10mo ago
I really hope that Japanese developers take advantage of this situation to show off at least some of the creativity that's possible when we're not quite as limited by Apple's restrictions. I don't doubt that from a 'security' point of view, Apple is going to continue to enforce all sorts of things that make it wildly more difficult to use the supercomputer in our pockets than I would like. But nonetheless, perhaps this gives a bit of room to be a little more illustrative. I know that from time to time people have argued that jailbreaking should have resulted in more creativity if it were going to, but with that tiny, tiny market, it's hard to believe that many developers, relatively speaking, would have been able to go hard at building something custom and impressive. With this larger market, hopefully folks will get the chance to do that now.
bloppe 10mo ago
> But some public comments released by the commission expressed concern that the legislation could undermine user security. I'm constantly amazed by how many people have fallen for this trick.
BrenBarn 10mo ago
What is the enforcement plan? What will the penalties be for noncompliance?
dtgriscom 10mo ago
I misread the title as "Japan jaw-opening phone app stores to go into effect"... strange imagery...
zb3 10mo ago
I'm waiting for the WebKit part - I remember this Japanese law also mandated Apple to allow other browser engines. The EU law effectively failed to enforce this.. I hope this will work better in Japan. EDIT: more info here: https://open-web-advocacy.org/blog/japan-apple-must-lift-engine-ban-by-december/ https://open-web-advocacy.org/blog/japan-apple-must-lift-eng...
workfromspace 10mo ago
Thank you, Brussels effect.

185 points by shlip 10mo ago

shlip 10mo ago

JFTC's full 'Mobile Software Competition Act Guidelines' are available here : https://www.jftc.go.jp/file/MSCA_Guidelines_tentative_translation.pdf https://www.jftc.go.jp/file/MSCA_Guidelines_tentative_transl... Curious to see how Apple and Google are going to circumvent this.

madeofpalk 10mo ago
How is it different to what Apple’s done in the EU, with allowing for third party app stores there.
idle_zealot 10mo ago
My admittedly amateur reading of this is that while it does promote competition, it also explicitly allows what Apple is pulling in the EU with its signing/review requirements for non-App Store applications. So no need to circumvent, they still retain control over what code is allowed to run on iPhones, albeit subject to restrictions on what reasoning they're allowed to use to refuse to sign an app.

ChrisArchitect 10mo ago

Some background: Japan to open up Apple and Google app stores to competition (2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36368735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36368735 Japan enacts law to promote competition in smartphone app stores (2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40662176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40662176 iOS 26.2 to allow third-party app stores in Japan ahead of regulatory deadline (Nov 2025) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45822302 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45822302

websiteapi 10mo ago

Sony and Nintendo stores are still closed I see lol

socalgal2 10mo ago
Sony and Nintendo only sell games. They don't gate access to banks, investments, health insurance, auto insurance, news, movies, social media, car control apps, appliance apps, grocery stores, e-commerce, etc... That's not to say Sony and Nintendo shouldn't be opened too but their impact is much smaller (game devs) than Apple (nearly all businesses)
- websiteapi 10mo ago
  Apple didn’t start that way though. Better to open it up now no? Also, a better law would be making the web first class, not adding more stores, with other gatekeepers…
  - ghurtado 10mo ago
    > Also, a better law would be No, the better law is the one that exists. Yours doesn't.
    - websiteapi 10mo ago
      Laws aren’t inherently good though… we will see what this does for Japan, I guess.
    - bloppe 10mo ago
      Are you implying that laws should never be changed?
- dangus 10mo ago
  It should be pointed out that they have way less of a monopoly on the market and way more gaming alternatives exist than Apple and Google. Apple, Google. Two app stores that are basically necessary for existing in the modern world with a smartphone, which include apps covering Japanese government services. In the gaming space, you’ve got PlayStation Store, Xbox Store, Nintendo eShop, Steam, Epic Game Store, GOG, a bazillion publisher storefronts, Apple and Google (again), Itch.io, physical media for the big 3 consoles at dozens of brick and mortar retailers, or even installing games directly with no store at all (Minecraft originated from its own online purchase portal).

Mathnerd314 10mo ago

how does this interact with Google's push to sign all apps?

idle_zealot 10mo ago
It doesn't. The law explicitly allows platform owners to require a verification/vetting process for applications, though it does limit the grounds on which Google is allowed to refuse to sign apps.

pzo 10mo ago

It seems we in EU got the worst implementation for apple malicious compliance. It should have been similar like this one Japan from the beginning.

extraduder_ire 10mo ago
How does Apple's implementation in Japan differ from their EU one? TFA doesn't have many details that I see.

linuxhansl 10mo ago

Nice. Someone is doing something. Apple's app store monopoly together with a 30% commission is a modern form of way-laying. Meanwhile Google is trying to go the opposite way with mandatory developer registration/verification. In the US we will likely let them. Who needs freedom if there is money to make (and Google is just making a fake security argument.) It shouldn't be that hard to do with my phone what I want, including accepting the consequences of my actions.

esperent 10mo ago
> a modern form of way-laying. The best phrase I've heard used to describe this is "techno feudalism".
musicale 10mo ago
> Apple's app store monopoly together with a 30% commission is a modern form of way-laying Most of the revenue from the App Store is from games (often in-app purchases from "free to play" games), so it's not surprising that they charge the same 30% platform fee that Nintendo charges. Epic would of course like to pay lower platform fees to Apple for Fortnite than they pay to Nintendo (or Google) for Fortnite.

tekacs 10mo ago

I really hope that Japanese developers take advantage of this situation to show off at least some of the creativity that's possible when we're not quite as limited by Apple's restrictions. I don't doubt that from a 'security' point of view, Apple is going to continue to enforce all sorts of things that make it wildly more difficult to use the supercomputer in our pockets than I would like. But nonetheless, perhaps this gives a bit of room to be a little more illustrative. I know that from time to time people have argued that jailbreaking should have resulted in more creativity if it were going to, but with that tiny, tiny market, it's hard to believe that many developers, relatively speaking, would have been able to go hard at building something custom and impressive. With this larger market, hopefully folks will get the chance to do that now.

bloppe 10mo ago

> But some public comments released by the commission expressed concern that the legislation could undermine user security. I'm constantly amazed by how many people have fallen for this trick.

BrenBarn 10mo ago

What is the enforcement plan? What will the penalties be for noncompliance?

dtgriscom 10mo ago

I misread the title as "Japan jaw-opening phone app stores to go into effect"... strange imagery...

zb3 10mo ago

I'm waiting for the WebKit part - I remember this Japanese law also mandated Apple to allow other browser engines. The EU law effectively failed to enforce this.. I hope this will work better in Japan. EDIT: more info here: https://open-web-advocacy.org/blog/japan-apple-must-lift-engine-ban-by-december/ https://open-web-advocacy.org/blog/japan-apple-must-lift-eng...

workfromspace 10mo ago

Thank you, Brussels effect.