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From Wiki: > They were detained by Russian border troop officers while they were crossing the Russian border near the Chukotkan village of Uelen, for not enter

by reisse 10mo ago

From Wiki: > They were detained by Russian border troop officers while they were crossing the Russian border near the Chukotkan village of Uelen, for not entering Russia at a correct port of entry. Illegal border crossing is absolutely not bureaucratic BS in any country.

guerrilla 10mo ago
That depends on your values. I think it's bureaucratic BS in every country. The world hasn't been like this forever, and still isn't like this for other animals.
- mnky9800n 10mo ago
  That would be amazing if some country tried to enforce visa rules on animals.
  - guerrilla 10mo ago
    They do actually, for example with swine in Denmark. They've built fences for that purpose specifically.
    - mnky9800n 10mo ago
      Do they have passports? Like how do they know if the pig is danish or German?
      - guerrilla 10mo ago
        I think many are tagged, but otherwise they have a lot of surveillance and fences. They probably track them after breeches as well. The point is to control disease.
- uhdhr 10mo ago
  If you enter a bear's den, especially if it has cubs, the bear will likely attack you. If you enter the territory of a swan, especially during nesting season, the swan might attack you. If a foreign object enters some animal's body, the immune system may attack that object.[0] Allergy might be related to the immune system misidentifying allergens. Squirrels can be surprisingly territorial. Ants have wars. [1] This is not surprising, since the consequences of territory being compromised can be severe. For instance, in this case [2], the territory was compromised through deception, like pretending to be one of them, and it led to the severe weakening or death of the whole colony through the mass devouring of their offspring. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_body_reaction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_body_reaction [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_ants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_ants [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/123ke8f/caterpillar_pretends_to_be_a_queen_ant_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/123ke...
  - yawpitch 10mo ago
    So you’re saying we are no better than animals, and shouldn’t aspire to be?
    - deleted 10mo ago
      [deleted]
    - _heimdall 10mo ago
      We are animals, we shouldn't try to avoid that as if its a bad thing.
      - yawpitch 10mo ago
        We should be, then, at least equal to animals in our behavior, and should also aspire to improve on them.
    - falcor84 10mo ago
      It was clearly a response to the grandparent's "... isn't like this for other animals". It's a fine thing to aspire to be better, but we just shouldn't be claiming that human behavior is any way less natural than that of all other animals.
- MrBuddyCasino 10mo ago
  Humans and animals enforce their borders since millennia. The idea that borders are unimportant is very very recent. That is to say, its commie gobbledygook.
  - uhdhr 10mo ago
    I am not convinced that the idea is recent, or rather, related ideas are not recent, going back thousands of years. It can be extremely complex, to put it very mildly. How well people that put their trust in some of those ideas fare, can likewise be an extremely complex topic, and can also be political. In some cases in some ways some of them might have fared well, in some other cases in some ways, maybe less so.
    - MrBuddyCasino 10mo ago
      A group of men crossing the border into another country was (usually) automatically considered invaders if its size exceeded a certain number. Eg Iberian Peninsula (Reconquista and later): Foreign parties >10 armed men could not cross without permission between christians and muslims. Chinese frontier zones, Scythians, Huns, Mongols, Turks etc all had similar rules. If you want to go back further, then Assyria, Egypt, Hittites, Greece had such limits.
      - uhdhr 10mo ago
        You are correct that there are many examples of border control mechanisms, in different levels and ways. Maybe even usually the vast majority for many levels and ways. Some nations, countries or groups, or other levels, did play with some of those mentioned ideas of less border control mechanisms in some ways or levels, also going back thousands of years. Countries that were not successful with border control mechanisms, sometimes ceased to exist. But there are many different levels and ways, and the whole topic is, to put it very mildly, extremely complex.
  - yawpitch 10mo ago
    Right, well we know which side of the enclosure of the commons you for some unaccountable reason assume you’d have born in.
- 15155 10mo ago
  > The world hasn't been like this forever People didn't receive handouts from governments in centuries past for just showing up and performing no contributory function. Kill all entitlements and let's open em' back up! > still isn't like this for other animals What reality are you living in where countless animal species aren't territorial? This is common sense.
pksebben 10mo ago
This might be a little broad for most, but I find the whole concept of nationalism and border sovereignty kinda tired. Who cares? We were nomads before we settled in cities, and it's only the designs of the empowered few that ever made the idea compulsory. I'm saying this as someone who enlisted in the defense of said nations once. Most of the structures that make up a country these days are for the birds - let a guy hike for chrissake. I also lived where I could see Tijuana from my back yard and all the pearl clutching and self-fanning over "illegal immigrants" is a giant crock of blustery nonsense. We have bigger problems than normal folks just trying to live their lives.
- godsinhisheaven 10mo ago
  The whole concept of nationalism and border sovereignty has been with us for essentially all of human history, and I don't see it petering out anytime soon. Plenty of people care, for all sorts of reasons, many of which I would say, are good!
  - cindyllm 10mo ago
    [dead]
  - pksebben 10mo ago
    That's partially true; the bit about borders and human history (so long as you sequester 'history' to 'recorded history') - but nationalism is actually newer than you'd think, and there were human societies for thousands of years before there were borders. More recent if you go by the current definition of border (formalized, surveyed borders are also relatively modern). Is nationalism going to peter out? No, of course not. Do some people care for reasons that are important to them? Sure, I don't want to tell anyone how to feel. I am just another jerk with an opinion like the rest of us. But if you were to ask me, it's take it or leave it. I'd be more than happy to see free movement in the world. Just another set of rules I'm not using.
    - bluebarbet 10mo ago
      Yes, hard borders are far more recent than people think. As late as the First World War you could travel the world without so much as a passport. But: back then only a handful of very rich people had the means to do that, and taxation and social protection were much lower than today. Those things are related. They (IMO of course!) are what make borders a pragmatic necessity.
JKCalhoun 10mo ago
"not entering Russia at a correct port of entry" I'm laughing at the lack of nuance in laws in general. Some guy crossed the Bering Straight on foot as part of a 27 year quest to walk around the world and the law makes no exception. I remember as a teen being hauled into a police station because a friend and I had been exploring the storm drains ("sewers") with a home-made flame thrower (okay, so the movie "Alien" had recently come out… Yeah, we left the flamethrower behind in the sewer when we popped our heads out and saw police). Someone in the neighborhood had called the police because she had seen us going down the manhole opening. (The police said the report came through that some kids had "fallen" into the sewers.) So I'm sitting in the police station with good cop and bad cop sitting there musing over my case. "How about 'Failure to use a sidewalk when a sidewalk was available'," bad cop said as he read from a book he was paging through. That got a laugh all around… They let me off after an hour or so of this.
- BryantD 10mo ago
  To be completely fair, Russia did decide to make an exception in this case, although it took a couple of months (during which Bushby was detained) to get there. I am a little bit torn in this case. From our vantage point it's obvious that Bushby wasn't running an elaborate long scam to get into Russia. In the moment... I don't know, former UK special forces guy? Long history of espionage between UK and Russia? Two months seems too long; it's also not as easy as your case of a teenager in the sewer.
  - JKCalhoun 10mo ago
    I saw that. Six months (if I recall) is kind of a long time…
hn_throwaway_99 10mo ago
Fair enough, but I interpreted "for not entering Russia at a correct port of entry" as he had a visa to enter the country, but he just didn't land at a recognized "port of entry", which given he walked/swam across the Being Strait, is unsurprising. But I don't know the full details of the situation.
LorenPechtel 10mo ago
Yeah, although it used to be that if you were legal to enter the US you actually could do it anywhere, just report to the local officials as soon as practical. That's still how ships work, you have to enter a country's territorial waters before you can speak to an official. Neither the US nor Canada does that now, effectively slicing the Pacific Coast Trail at the border. And now we have the scumbags for no good reason blocking off access to the southern terminus of the Continental Divide Trail. That fence isn't going to stop someone trying to sneak into the country!

by reisse 10mo ago

guerrilla 10mo ago

That depends on your values. I think it's bureaucratic BS in every country. The world hasn't been like this forever, and still isn't like this for other animals.

mnky9800n 10mo ago
That would be amazing if some country tried to enforce visa rules on animals.
- guerrilla 10mo ago
  They do actually, for example with swine in Denmark. They've built fences for that purpose specifically.
  - mnky9800n 10mo ago
    Do they have passports? Like how do they know if the pig is danish or German?
    - guerrilla 10mo ago
      I think many are tagged, but otherwise they have a lot of surveillance and fences. They probably track them after breeches as well. The point is to control disease.
uhdhr 10mo ago
If you enter a bear's den, especially if it has cubs, the bear will likely attack you. If you enter the territory of a swan, especially during nesting season, the swan might attack you. If a foreign object enters some animal's body, the immune system may attack that object.[0] Allergy might be related to the immune system misidentifying allergens. Squirrels can be surprisingly territorial. Ants have wars. [1] This is not surprising, since the consequences of territory being compromised can be severe. For instance, in this case [2], the territory was compromised through deception, like pretending to be one of them, and it led to the severe weakening or death of the whole colony through the mass devouring of their offspring. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_body_reaction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_body_reaction [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_ants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_ants [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/123ke8f/caterpillar_pretends_to_be_a_queen_ant_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/123ke...
- yawpitch 10mo ago
  So you’re saying we are no better than animals, and shouldn’t aspire to be?
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
  - _heimdall 10mo ago
    We are animals, we shouldn't try to avoid that as if its a bad thing.
    - yawpitch 10mo ago
      We should be, then, at least equal to animals in our behavior, and should also aspire to improve on them.
  - falcor84 10mo ago
    It was clearly a response to the grandparent's "... isn't like this for other animals". It's a fine thing to aspire to be better, but we just shouldn't be claiming that human behavior is any way less natural than that of all other animals.
MrBuddyCasino 10mo ago
Humans and animals enforce their borders since millennia. The idea that borders are unimportant is very very recent. That is to say, its commie gobbledygook.
- uhdhr 10mo ago
  I am not convinced that the idea is recent, or rather, related ideas are not recent, going back thousands of years. It can be extremely complex, to put it very mildly. How well people that put their trust in some of those ideas fare, can likewise be an extremely complex topic, and can also be political. In some cases in some ways some of them might have fared well, in some other cases in some ways, maybe less so.
  - MrBuddyCasino 10mo ago
    A group of men crossing the border into another country was (usually) automatically considered invaders if its size exceeded a certain number. Eg Iberian Peninsula (Reconquista and later): Foreign parties >10 armed men could not cross without permission between christians and muslims. Chinese frontier zones, Scythians, Huns, Mongols, Turks etc all had similar rules. If you want to go back further, then Assyria, Egypt, Hittites, Greece had such limits.
    - uhdhr 10mo ago
      You are correct that there are many examples of border control mechanisms, in different levels and ways. Maybe even usually the vast majority for many levels and ways. Some nations, countries or groups, or other levels, did play with some of those mentioned ideas of less border control mechanisms in some ways or levels, also going back thousands of years. Countries that were not successful with border control mechanisms, sometimes ceased to exist. But there are many different levels and ways, and the whole topic is, to put it very mildly, extremely complex.
- yawpitch 10mo ago
  Right, well we know which side of the enclosure of the commons you for some unaccountable reason assume you’d have born in.
15155 10mo ago
> The world hasn't been like this forever People didn't receive handouts from governments in centuries past for just showing up and performing no contributory function. Kill all entitlements and let's open em' back up! > still isn't like this for other animals What reality are you living in where countless animal species aren't territorial? This is common sense.

pksebben 10mo ago

This might be a little broad for most, but I find the whole concept of nationalism and border sovereignty kinda tired. Who cares? We were nomads before we settled in cities, and it's only the designs of the empowered few that ever made the idea compulsory. I'm saying this as someone who enlisted in the defense of said nations once. Most of the structures that make up a country these days are for the birds - let a guy hike for chrissake. I also lived where I could see Tijuana from my back yard and all the pearl clutching and self-fanning over "illegal immigrants" is a giant crock of blustery nonsense. We have bigger problems than normal folks just trying to live their lives.

godsinhisheaven 10mo ago
The whole concept of nationalism and border sovereignty has been with us for essentially all of human history, and I don't see it petering out anytime soon. Plenty of people care, for all sorts of reasons, many of which I would say, are good!
- cindyllm 10mo ago
  [dead]
- pksebben 10mo ago
  That's partially true; the bit about borders and human history (so long as you sequester 'history' to 'recorded history') - but nationalism is actually newer than you'd think, and there were human societies for thousands of years before there were borders. More recent if you go by the current definition of border (formalized, surveyed borders are also relatively modern). Is nationalism going to peter out? No, of course not. Do some people care for reasons that are important to them? Sure, I don't want to tell anyone how to feel. I am just another jerk with an opinion like the rest of us. But if you were to ask me, it's take it or leave it. I'd be more than happy to see free movement in the world. Just another set of rules I'm not using.
  - bluebarbet 10mo ago
    Yes, hard borders are far more recent than people think. As late as the First World War you could travel the world without so much as a passport. But: back then only a handful of very rich people had the means to do that, and taxation and social protection were much lower than today. Those things are related. They (IMO of course!) are what make borders a pragmatic necessity.

JKCalhoun 10mo ago

"not entering Russia at a correct port of entry" I'm laughing at the lack of nuance in laws in general. Some guy crossed the Bering Straight on foot as part of a 27 year quest to walk around the world and the law makes no exception. I remember as a teen being hauled into a police station because a friend and I had been exploring the storm drains ("sewers") with a home-made flame thrower (okay, so the movie "Alien" had recently come out… Yeah, we left the flamethrower behind in the sewer when we popped our heads out and saw police). Someone in the neighborhood had called the police because she had seen us going down the manhole opening. (The police said the report came through that some kids had "fallen" into the sewers.) So I'm sitting in the police station with good cop and bad cop sitting there musing over my case. "How about 'Failure to use a sidewalk when a sidewalk was available'," bad cop said as he read from a book he was paging through. That got a laugh all around… They let me off after an hour or so of this.

BryantD 10mo ago
To be completely fair, Russia did decide to make an exception in this case, although it took a couple of months (during which Bushby was detained) to get there. I am a little bit torn in this case. From our vantage point it's obvious that Bushby wasn't running an elaborate long scam to get into Russia. In the moment... I don't know, former UK special forces guy? Long history of espionage between UK and Russia? Two months seems too long; it's also not as easy as your case of a teenager in the sewer.
- JKCalhoun 10mo ago
  I saw that. Six months (if I recall) is kind of a long time…

hn_throwaway_99 10mo ago

Fair enough, but I interpreted "for not entering Russia at a correct port of entry" as he had a visa to enter the country, but he just didn't land at a recognized "port of entry", which given he walked/swam across the Being Strait, is unsurprising. But I don't know the full details of the situation.

LorenPechtel 10mo ago

Yeah, although it used to be that if you were legal to enter the US you actually could do it anywhere, just report to the local officials as soon as practical. That's still how ships work, you have to enter a country's territorial waters before you can speak to an official. Neither the US nor Canada does that now, effectively slicing the Pacific Coast Trail at the border. And now we have the scumbags for no good reason blocking off access to the southern terminus of the Continental Divide Trail. That fence isn't going to stop someone trying to sneak into the country!