3 ms·

For the record, brains are also not free of hallucinations.

by kyletns 10mo ago

delaminator 10mo ago
That’s not a very useful observation though is it? The purpose of mechanisation is to standardise and over the long term reduce errors to zero. Otoh “The final truth is there is no truth”
- michaelscott 10mo ago
  A lot of mechanisation, especially in the modern world, is not deterministic and is not always 100% right; it's a fundamental "physics at scale" issue, not something new to LLMs. I think what happened when they first appeared was that people immediately clung to a superintelligence-type AI idea of what LLMs were supposed to do, then realised that's not what they are, then kept going and swung all the way over to "these things aren't good at anything really" or "if they only fix this ONE issue I have with them, they'll actually be useful"
  - delaminator 10mo ago
    That's why I said tend to zero error. I'm a Six Sigma guy. We take accurate over precise.
rimeice 10mo ago
I still don’t really get this argument/excuse for why it’s acceptable that LLMs hallucinate. These tools are meant to support us, but we end up with two parties who are, as you say, prone to “hallucination” and it becomes a situation of the blind leading the blind. Ideally in these scenarios there’s at least one party with a definitive or deterministic view so the other party (i.e. us) at least has some trust in the information they’re receiving and any decisions they make off the back of it.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- TeMPOraL 10mo ago
  For these types of problems (i.e. most problems in the real world), the "definitive or deterministic" isn't really possible. An unreliable party you can throw at the problem from a hundred thousand directions simultaneously and for cheap, is still useful.
- ssl-3 10mo ago
  Have you ever employed anyone? People, when tasked with a job, often get it right. I've been blessed by working with many great people who really do an amazing job of generally succeeding to get things right -- or at least, right-enough. But in any line of work: Sometimes people fuck it up. Sometimes, they forget important steps. Sometimes, they're sure they did it one way when instead they did it some other way and fix it themselves. Sometimes, they even say they did the job and did it as-prescribed and actually believe themselves, when they've done neither -- and they're perplexed when they're shown this. They "hallucinate" and do dumb things for reasons that aren't real. And sometimes, they just make shit up and lie. They know they're lying and they lie anyway, doubling-down over and over again. Sometimes they even go all spastic and deliberately throw monkey wrenches into the works, just because they feel something that makes them think that this kind of willfully-destructive action benefits them. All employees suck some of the time. They each have their own issues. And all employees are expensive to hire, and expensive to fire, and expensive to keep going. But some of their outputs are useful, so we employ people anyway. (And we're human; even the very best of us are going to make mistakes.) LLMs are not so different in this way, as a general construct. They can get things right. They can also make shit up. They can skip steps. The can lie, and double-down on those lies. They hallucinate. LLMs suck. All of them. They all fucking suck. They aren't even good at sucking, and they persist at doing it anyway. (But some of their outputs are useful, and LLMs generally cost a lot less to make use of than people do, so here we are.)
  - vitorfblima 10mo ago
    I don’t get the comparison. It would be like saying it’s okay if an excel formula gives me different outcomes everytime with the same arguments, sometimes right, but mostly wrong.
krzyk 10mo ago
Hallucinations are not bad. It adds some kind of creativity, which is good for e.g. image generation, coding, or story telling. It is bad only in case of reporting on facts.
andrei_says_ 10mo ago
How much do you hallucinate at work? How many of your work hallucinations do you confidently present as reality in communication or code? LLMs are being sold as viable replacement of paid employees. If they were not, they wouldn’t be funded the way they are.

For the record, brains are also not free of hallucinations.

by kyletns 10mo ago

For the record, brains are also not free of hallucinations.

That’s not a very useful observation though is it? The purpose of mechanisation is to standardise and over the long term reduce errors to zero. Otoh “The final truth is there is no truth”

michaelscott 10mo ago
A lot of mechanisation, especially in the modern world, is not deterministic and is not always 100% right; it's a fundamental "physics at scale" issue, not something new to LLMs. I think what happened when they first appeared was that people immediately clung to a superintelligence-type AI idea of what LLMs were supposed to do, then realised that's not what they are, then kept going and swung all the way over to "these things aren't good at anything really" or "if they only fix this ONE issue I have with them, they'll actually be useful"
- delaminator 10mo ago
  That's why I said tend to zero error. I'm a Six Sigma guy. We take accurate over precise.

rimeice 10mo ago

I still don’t really get this argument/excuse for why it’s acceptable that LLMs hallucinate. These tools are meant to support us, but we end up with two parties who are, as you say, prone to “hallucination” and it becomes a situation of the blind leading the blind. Ideally in these scenarios there’s at least one party with a definitive or deterministic view so the other party (i.e. us) at least has some trust in the information they’re receiving and any decisions they make off the back of it.

deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
TeMPOraL 10mo ago
For these types of problems (i.e. most problems in the real world), the "definitive or deterministic" isn't really possible. An unreliable party you can throw at the problem from a hundred thousand directions simultaneously and for cheap, is still useful.
ssl-3 10mo ago
Have you ever employed anyone? People, when tasked with a job, often get it right. I've been blessed by working with many great people who really do an amazing job of generally succeeding to get things right -- or at least, right-enough. But in any line of work: Sometimes people fuck it up. Sometimes, they forget important steps. Sometimes, they're sure they did it one way when instead they did it some other way and fix it themselves. Sometimes, they even say they did the job and did it as-prescribed and actually believe themselves, when they've done neither -- and they're perplexed when they're shown this. They "hallucinate" and do dumb things for reasons that aren't real. And sometimes, they just make shit up and lie. They know they're lying and they lie anyway, doubling-down over and over again. Sometimes they even go all spastic and deliberately throw monkey wrenches into the works, just because they feel something that makes them think that this kind of willfully-destructive action benefits them. All employees suck some of the time. They each have their own issues. And all employees are expensive to hire, and expensive to fire, and expensive to keep going. But some of their outputs are useful, so we employ people anyway. (And we're human; even the very best of us are going to make mistakes.) LLMs are not so different in this way, as a general construct. They can get things right. They can also make shit up. They can skip steps. The can lie, and double-down on those lies. They hallucinate. LLMs suck. All of them. They all fucking suck. They aren't even good at sucking, and they persist at doing it anyway. (But some of their outputs are useful, and LLMs generally cost a lot less to make use of than people do, so here we are.)
- vitorfblima 10mo ago
  I don’t get the comparison. It would be like saying it’s okay if an excel formula gives me different outcomes everytime with the same arguments, sometimes right, but mostly wrong.

krzyk 10mo ago

Hallucinations are not bad. It adds some kind of creativity, which is good for e.g. image generation, coding, or story telling. It is bad only in case of reporting on facts.

andrei_says_ 10mo ago

How much do you hallucinate at work? How many of your work hallucinations do you confidently present as reality in communication or code? LLMs are being sold as viable replacement of paid employees. If they were not, they wouldn’t be funded the way they are.