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You're confusing design with visual appeal. Steve Jobs loved to rant about design and longetivity, but Apple laptops only seem to excel on visual appeal (and th

by sedachv 14y ago

You're confusing design with visual appeal. Steve Jobs loved to rant about design and longetivity, but Apple laptops only seem to excel on visual appeal (and this is a recent phenomenon - just look at the first PowerBook G4s). Design has to be functional, and this is where Apple always makes sacrifices. Bringing chiclet-style keyboards back into vogue (to the point where even Lenovo now puts them on Thinkpads) shows a complete disregard for the functionality of the laptop as a computer. Try comparing the new apple-style chiclet keys, to "skateboard-ramp" shaped keys (an "innovation" introduced by IBM to save costs), to the spherical shaped keys (http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/?page_id=1458#shapes http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/?page_id=1458#shapes) of high-end keyboards from the 1980s and you will see how far computer keyboards have actually degenerated. This isn't just my opinion - Kathleen Potosnak's review of literature (appears as chapter 21 in Helander's Handbook of Human-Computer Interaction) shows that shaped keys are better for typing. There's a lot to be said about 3-button mice as well. One thing I do like about Macs is the touchpad on the newest ones (it took Apple a long time to make them really useful, though). Again, this is a sacrifice in terms of functionality. You can do things like https://github.com/vsedach/mouse-copy https://github.com/vsedach/mouse-copy with the Thinkpad touchpoint and even the trackpad, but it's not convenient with most other trackpads (especially ones like the Mac's that don't have separate keys). In terms of longetivity and visual design, I'm typing this on a 2004 Thinkpad T43. Nothing on this machine is broken, and despite 8 years of almost continuous use, even the keyboard labels only have a few nicks. This laptop looks as new or as old as the early 90s 386 Thinkpad we have at the hackerspace or the X230 my friend bought a few months ago. It wasn't until the PowerBook that Apple hit on a design with any sort of longetivity. Besides Apple and IBM/Lenovo, there's no one making laptops with a lasting design across many product generations.

cpeterso 14y ago
I've always thought the ThinkPad's keyboard is one of its worst attributes. The keyboard's layout is very cramped. The keys feel flimsy and loose. Their edges are sharp and exposed when you type.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  For the life of me I cannot find a single sharp edge on this keyboard, as I type on it right now.
  - cpeterso 14y ago
    Perhaps "sharp" is not the right description. <:) I meant that when you press a key down, it is possible to feel the edges of the neighboring keys. Your finger can catch on a key's lip (if you try) and flex it up. To me, it (literally) feels cheap and flimsy. I've only had two (Lenovo) ThinkPads, so I don't know if different models or IBM's models had better build quality.
    - sedachv 14y ago
      That sounds strange. They keys on most Thinkpads can't depress far enough that you'd catch the edge of the key in the upper neighboring row. I just tried, and I can catch the edge of the key in the next row below, although I'd have to have my fingers pulling down on the keys to do that. That's part of what the key shape does - it's supposed to guide your finger to the center of the key and keep it from sliding off. As far as the actual mechanism of the keyboards, almost all laptops (including Macbooks and Thinkpads) have used the same scissor-switch mechanisms for about the last decade.
- pearle 14y ago
  Wow, I'm of the opinion that ThinkPads have the best laptop keyboards by far. Sharp keys? Which model did you use?
nessus42 14y ago
> but Apple laptops only seem to excel on visual appeal (and this is a recent phenomenon - just look at the first PowerBook G4s). Design has to be functional, and this is where Apple always makes sacrifices. I don't know what you are talking about--you are WAY overstating your case. My 11-inch MacBook Air is by the far the most ergonomic and pleasant-to-use laptop computer I have ever owned. The keyboard on it is by far the best laptop keyboard I have ever used, and the trackpad is revolutionarily wonderful compared to any other trackpad I have ever used. That being said, I do prefer Thinkpad-style nubs to trackpads. Also, I find Thinkpads to be beautiful, not ugly. Also, I would agree that Apple does at times make unfortunate ergonomic decisions, like the lamentable and fortunately short-lived round mouse of a decade ago, and Apple's current laptop-style keyboard for desktop computers is a bit questionable. This doesn't bother me, personally, as I use a Kinesis keyboard anyway. Also, since Apple's laptop keyboards are so good, I think they actually might be better than most desktop keyboards anyway. I don't find Apple to be any worse in the regard of form-over-function than another other company. The ergonomic improvements that they've brought in recent years far offset any ergonomic harm that they have done. One thing that Apple did get right with it's desktop keyboard is a return to small keyboards rather than the monstrosities that the industry has been foisting on us for the last few decades. The current small Apple keyboards remind me of "Happy Hacking" keyboards, which are the way that keyboards should be.
- Gigablah 14y ago
  Have you used a pre-2011 Macbook? My 2010 MBP has sharp edges, so they leave marks on my forearms. Not very comfortable. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2471321 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2471321 The Magic Mouse is even less comfortable. I don't know how they expect people to hold that for any significant period.
  - nessus42 14y ago
    On your forearms? You should not be pressing your forearms onto anything when you type or you'll give yourself carpal tunnel syndrome. Take it from one who knows! If the sharp edges discourage you from doing this, then more power to sharp edges! I have not used a pre-2011 Macbook, though I did have a 2006 or so PowerBook. It was fine. My only complaint was that it get too hot to use with bare legs. This is one of the reasons that Apple switched from the PowerPC to Intel. I haven't used a Magic Mouse. The idea of mouse with a touch-sensitive top seems like a great idea. I don't know how it works out in reality. I use a Cyborg R.A.T. 9 mouse. I love it. I also sometimes use an Apple Magic Trackpad, and I think that it is fantastic.

by sedachv 14y ago

cpeterso 14y ago

I've always thought the ThinkPad's keyboard is one of its worst attributes. The keyboard's layout is very cramped. The keys feel flimsy and loose. Their edges are sharp and exposed when you type.

jlgreco 14y ago
For the life of me I cannot find a single sharp edge on this keyboard, as I type on it right now.
- cpeterso 14y ago
  Perhaps "sharp" is not the right description. <:) I meant that when you press a key down, it is possible to feel the edges of the neighboring keys. Your finger can catch on a key's lip (if you try) and flex it up. To me, it (literally) feels cheap and flimsy. I've only had two (Lenovo) ThinkPads, so I don't know if different models or IBM's models had better build quality.
  - sedachv 14y ago
    That sounds strange. They keys on most Thinkpads can't depress far enough that you'd catch the edge of the key in the upper neighboring row. I just tried, and I can catch the edge of the key in the next row below, although I'd have to have my fingers pulling down on the keys to do that. That's part of what the key shape does - it's supposed to guide your finger to the center of the key and keep it from sliding off. As far as the actual mechanism of the keyboards, almost all laptops (including Macbooks and Thinkpads) have used the same scissor-switch mechanisms for about the last decade.
pearle 14y ago
Wow, I'm of the opinion that ThinkPads have the best laptop keyboards by far. Sharp keys? Which model did you use?

nessus42 14y ago

> but Apple laptops only seem to excel on visual appeal (and this is a recent phenomenon - just look at the first PowerBook G4s). Design has to be functional, and this is where Apple always makes sacrifices. I don't know what you are talking about--you are WAY overstating your case. My 11-inch MacBook Air is by the far the most ergonomic and pleasant-to-use laptop computer I have ever owned. The keyboard on it is by far the best laptop keyboard I have ever used, and the trackpad is revolutionarily wonderful compared to any other trackpad I have ever used. That being said, I do prefer Thinkpad-style nubs to trackpads. Also, I find Thinkpads to be beautiful, not ugly. Also, I would agree that Apple does at times make unfortunate ergonomic decisions, like the lamentable and fortunately short-lived round mouse of a decade ago, and Apple's current laptop-style keyboard for desktop computers is a bit questionable. This doesn't bother me, personally, as I use a Kinesis keyboard anyway. Also, since Apple's laptop keyboards are so good, I think they actually might be better than most desktop keyboards anyway. I don't find Apple to be any worse in the regard of form-over-function than another other company. The ergonomic improvements that they've brought in recent years far offset any ergonomic harm that they have done. One thing that Apple did get right with it's desktop keyboard is a return to small keyboards rather than the monstrosities that the industry has been foisting on us for the last few decades. The current small Apple keyboards remind me of "Happy Hacking" keyboards, which are the way that keyboards should be.

Gigablah 14y ago
Have you used a pre-2011 Macbook? My 2010 MBP has sharp edges, so they leave marks on my forearms. Not very comfortable. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2471321 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2471321 The Magic Mouse is even less comfortable. I don't know how they expect people to hold that for any significant period.
- nessus42 14y ago
  On your forearms? You should not be pressing your forearms onto anything when you type or you'll give yourself carpal tunnel syndrome. Take it from one who knows! If the sharp edges discourage you from doing this, then more power to sharp edges! I have not used a pre-2011 Macbook, though I did have a 2006 or so PowerBook. It was fine. My only complaint was that it get too hot to use with bare legs. This is one of the reasons that Apple switched from the PowerPC to Intel. I haven't used a Magic Mouse. The idea of mouse with a touch-sensitive top seems like a great idea. I don't know how it works out in reality. I use a Cyborg R.A.T. 9 mouse. I love it. I also sometimes use an Apple Magic Trackpad, and I think that it is fantastic.