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I think I have to disagree here. From my experience, working as a team is the centerpoint of German work culture. This includes giving each member of a team the

I think I have to disagree here. From my experience, working as a team is the centerpoint of German work culture. This includes giving each member of a team the oportunity to contribute in discussions and then also taking their suggestions seriously. The hierarchy is there, but rather at the same level or below the level of most other European countries. In France, on the other hand, hierarchy is very strict, including within a team. Supposedly, this is caused by the French higher education system. Taken together, the German and the French model often produce horrible failures when a French company tries to expand into Germany. If there is a problem to be solved within a team, the German Engineers/Workers will expect to hear the following at a meeting: "Listen guys, we have to change this and that, how do you think we could do it?". A French manager, however, is trained to walk into the meeting and say "We are now doing it like this.". Generally, I would recommend to stop associating strict hierarchy with Germany. Things have been changing for at least 40 Years now and in many fields (probably not all however) the amount of hierarchy is "normal". Things like pulling rank are observed rather seldomly in the technical fields. If you want to see how these things used to be a long time ago, you might want to look at Austria. Also, if you want a reason for why there is no SV-like feel to any of the German technology "hubs", I'd suggest risk-aversion as a reason. If you asked me what the most central collective character trait of todays Germans is, my answer would be risk-aversion. When you tell a German what he can gain, he will ask you what he could lose. On a side note, be careful when forming an opinion about Europe if your only fluent European language is English. Things might look very different on the other side of the language barrier. When talking about Germany, for instance, even the most carefully written publication from the UK will have inaccuracies in it. The way in which todays Germany and the Germanys past are convoluted in public discourse in the UK will influence anybody living there, even if he actively tries to avoid it. On the other side of the coin, natives or expats that live in a European country and tell you about it also have narratives, usually heavyly influenced by how they want to see themselves and their nationality. You basically can't trust anyone.

christofd 14y ago
Well said. This matches my experience living for a long time in Germany (south and north), and interactions with French. I remember (from friends) the problems at DLR in Munich (German Aerospace Center) with senior French engineers trying to pull rank, which doesn't work in team-based German work culture. Also, spot on with Anglo news coverage not really speaking for/ capturing the essence in continental Europe. E.g. current Anglo news criticizing northern European countries for 'austerity' measures (well, it's their money, so obviously they will not hand it out gladly). It's an elusive topic with hardly any good information. Quite unusual to see such a balanced reply here.
radicalbyte 14y ago
> Generally, I would recommend to stop associating strict > hierarchy with Germany. I work for a French/German business, I live in The Netherlands but I'm originally British. I work daily with a team from UK, Germany, Netherlands, Denmark and France. The German team is by far the most hierarchical. After living in The Netherlands for the last several years it really makes an impression working with Germans. For example if there's a problem, and it's the responsibility of the manager, but the manager is away: nothing is done. No-one criticises bad management. They do what they're told. No questions. In my experience of The Netherlands it's different: if someone makes a stupid decision, you go drink a cup of coffee with them and explain it to them. You don't hide behind organisational lines. It could be a company thing: but I've worked with Germans in the past, and we had the same issues then (granted, this was back when I only spoke one language). > On a side note, be careful when forming an opinion about > Europe if your only fluent European language is English. Good point. I'm fluent in Dutch and English. Becoming fluent in your 2nd language changes your perspective, broadens it. For me it has stopped me making assumptions: experience first.
- sentenza 14y ago
  Ah, I think I understand what is going on. I've never been in a situation like you describe but I have heard from friends and family about such work environments. Here is my take on what causes the kind of behaviour you describe: The flipside of German teamwork culture is that it is very hard to restore a dysfunctional team back to how it "should be" once the trust between engineers/workers and managers is lost. After a few instances of people who tried to contribute getting burnt and a few seemingly random but destructive decisions by management, people go into "bunker mode". This means: Serious ass-covering and everybody just doing as they're told (the term for this last symptom is "Dienst nach Vorschrift"). For practical purposes, this is identical to a strict hierarchy, as you will have to go through official channels to get anything done. For a engineering team or engineering department, this can cause long-term damage. People in Germany are much more reluctant to quit a safe job and search for another than people in the US, so the disgruntled workers will just stay there and perpetuate the bad situation. There is actually a valuable lesson here for anybody that comes into a managerial position within a German company: In any large organization there is a team or two that has these kind of problems at any time. Hovever, if you get the feeling that this is the rule rather than the exception, the culture of that organization is dysfunctional and in nine cases out of ten that organization is also underperforming.

christofd 14y ago

Well said. This matches my experience living for a long time in Germany (south and north), and interactions with French. I remember (from friends) the problems at DLR in Munich (German Aerospace Center) with senior French engineers trying to pull rank, which doesn't work in team-based German work culture. Also, spot on with Anglo news coverage not really speaking for/ capturing the essence in continental Europe. E.g. current Anglo news criticizing northern European countries for 'austerity' measures (well, it's their money, so obviously they will not hand it out gladly). It's an elusive topic with hardly any good information. Quite unusual to see such a balanced reply here.

radicalbyte 14y ago

> Generally, I would recommend to stop associating strict > hierarchy with Germany. I work for a French/German business, I live in The Netherlands but I'm originally British. I work daily with a team from UK, Germany, Netherlands, Denmark and France. The German team is by far the most hierarchical. After living in The Netherlands for the last several years it really makes an impression working with Germans. For example if there's a problem, and it's the responsibility of the manager, but the manager is away: nothing is done. No-one criticises bad management. They do what they're told. No questions. In my experience of The Netherlands it's different: if someone makes a stupid decision, you go drink a cup of coffee with them and explain it to them. You don't hide behind organisational lines. It could be a company thing: but I've worked with Germans in the past, and we had the same issues then (granted, this was back when I only spoke one language). > On a side note, be careful when forming an opinion about > Europe if your only fluent European language is English. Good point. I'm fluent in Dutch and English. Becoming fluent in your 2nd language changes your perspective, broadens it. For me it has stopped me making assumptions: experience first.

sentenza 14y ago
Ah, I think I understand what is going on. I've never been in a situation like you describe but I have heard from friends and family about such work environments. Here is my take on what causes the kind of behaviour you describe: The flipside of German teamwork culture is that it is very hard to restore a dysfunctional team back to how it "should be" once the trust between engineers/workers and managers is lost. After a few instances of people who tried to contribute getting burnt and a few seemingly random but destructive decisions by management, people go into "bunker mode". This means: Serious ass-covering and everybody just doing as they're told (the term for this last symptom is "Dienst nach Vorschrift"). For practical purposes, this is identical to a strict hierarchy, as you will have to go through official channels to get anything done. For a engineering team or engineering department, this can cause long-term damage. People in Germany are much more reluctant to quit a safe job and search for another than people in the US, so the disgruntled workers will just stay there and perpetuate the bad situation. There is actually a valuable lesson here for anybody that comes into a managerial position within a German company: In any large organization there is a team or two that has these kind of problems at any time. Hovever, if you get the feeling that this is the rule rather than the exception, the culture of that organization is dysfunctional and in nine cases out of ten that organization is also underperforming.