6 ms·

It would be one thing if it was a 20% increase in space usage, or if the whole game was smaller to start with, or if they had actually checked to see how much i

It would be one thing if it was a 20% increase in space usage, or if the whole game was smaller to start with, or if they had actually checked to see how much it assisted HDD users. But over 6x the size with so little benefit for such a small segment of the players is very frustrating. Why wasn't this caught earlier? Why didn't anyone test? Why didn't anyone weigh the pros and cons? It's kind of exemplary of HD2's technical state in general - which is a mix of poor performance and bugs. There was a period where almost every other mission became impossible to complete because it was bugged. The negativity is frustration boiling over from years of a bad technical state for the game. I do appreciate them making the right choice now though, of course.

colechristensen 11mo ago
>But over 6x the size with so little benefit for such a small segment of the players is very frustrating. Why wasn't this caught earlier? Why didn't anyone test? Why didn't anyone weigh the pros and cons? Have you never worked in an organization that made software? Damn near everything can be 10x as fast and using 1/10th the resources if someone bothered to take the time to find the optimizations. RARE is it that something is even in the same order of magnitude as its optimum implementation.
- ozgrakkurt 11mo ago
  This is not a reason for accepting it imo
  - mywittyname 11mo ago
    Optimization takes up time, and often it takes up the time of an expert. Given that, people need to accept higher costs, longer development times, or reduced scope if they want better optimized games. But what is worse, is just trying to optimize software is not the same as successfully optimizing it. So time and money spent on optimization might yield no results because there might not be anymore efficiency to be gained, the person doing the work lacks the technical skill, the gains are part of a tradeoff that cannot be justified, or the person doing the work can't make a change (i.e., a 3rd party library is the problem). The lack of technical skill is a big one, IMO. I'm personally terrible at optimizing code, but I'm pretty good at building functional software in a short amount of time. We have a person on our team who is really good at it and sometimes he'll come in after me to optimize work that I've done. But he'll spend several multiples of the time I took making it work and hammering out edge cases. Sometimes the savings is worth it.
    - kappaking 11mo ago
      > Given that, people need to accept higher costs, longer development times, or reduced scope if they want better optimized games. God why can’t it just be longer development time. I’m sick of the premature fetuses of games.
      - Cyphusx 11mo ago
        The trade off they're talking about is to arrive at the same end product. The reason games are typically released as "fetuses" is because it reduces the financial risk. Much like any product, you want to get it to market as soon as is sensible in order to see if it's worth continuing to spend time and money on it.
        mort96 11mo ago
        And this really shouldn't surprise professionals in an industry where everything's always about development velocity and releasing Minimum Viable Products as quickly into the market as possible.
      - maccard 11mo ago
        > God why can’t it just be longer development time. Where do you stop? What do the 5 tech designers do while the 2 engine programmers optimise every last byte of network traffic? > I’m sick of the premature fetuses of games. Come on, keep this sort of crap off here. Games being janky isn't new - look at old console games and they're basically duct taped together. Go back to Half-life 1 in 1998 - the Xen world is complete and utter trash. Go back farther and you have stuff that's literally unplayable [0], or things that were so bad they literally destroyed an entire industry [1], or rendered the game uncompleteable [2]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Jekyll_and_Mr._Hyde_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Jekyll_and_Mr._Hyde_(video... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/jan/30/a-golden-shining-moment-the-true-story-behind-et-the-worst-video-game-ever https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/jan/30/a-golden-shinin... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/gamecollecting/comments/hv63ad/comment/fys0wg9/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gamecollecting/comments/hv63ad/comm...
- zamadatix 11mo ago
  I think what makes this a bit different from the usual "time/value tradeoff" discussion is bloating the size by 6x-7x was the result of unnecessary work in the name of optimization instead of lack of cycles to spend on optimization.
  - mort96 11mo ago
    Eh probably not, it's probably handled by some automated system when making release builds of the game. Sure, implementing that initially was probably some work (or maybe it was just checking a checkbox in some tool), but there's probably not much manual work involved anymore to keep it going. Reverting it now though, when the game is out there on a million systems, requires significant investigation to ensure they're not making things significantly worse for anyone, plus a lot of testing to make sure it doesn't outright break stuff.
    - zamadatix 11mo ago
      Reverting it now was certainly a pile of work, but that's neither here nor there for the portion of the story bothering people. It's like they threw rocks threw the windows years ago to make them slightly clearer to see through and now put a ton of work in to undo that because they discovered that made no sense in reality. It's great they did all the work to fix it after the fact, but that doesn't justify why it was worth throwing rocks through the window in the first place (which is different than not doing optimizations).
- thaumasiotes 11mo ago
  But this isn't an optimization. The 150+GB size is the "optimization", one that never actually helped with anything. The whole news here is "Helldivers 2 stopped intentionally screwing its customers". I don't see why it's a surprise that people react "negatively", in the sense of being mad that (a) Helldivers 2 was intentionally screwing the customers before, and (b) everyone else is still doing it.
  - bigstrat2003 11mo ago
    > The whole news here is "Helldivers 2 stopped intentionally screwing its customers". That is an extremely disingenuous way to frame the issue.
    - thaumasiotes 11mo ago
      How so?
teamonkey 11mo ago
It was a choice, not an oversight. They actively optimised for HDD users, because they believed that failing to do so could impact load times for both SSD and HDD users. There was no speed penalty in doing so for SSD users, just a disk usage penalty. Helldivers II was also much smaller at launch than it is now. It was almost certainly a good choice at launch.
- mort96 11mo ago
  You make a million decisions in the beginning of every project. I'm certain they made the choice to do this "optimization" at an early point (or even incidentally copied the choice over from an earlier project) at a stage where the disk footprint was small (a game being 7GB when it could've been 1GB doesn't exactly set off alarm bells). Then they just didn't reconsider the choice until, well, now.
  - teamonkey 11mo ago
    Even at the end of development it’s a sensible choice. It’s the default strategy for catering to machines with slow disk access. The risk of some players experiencing slow load times is catastrophic at launch. In absence of solid user data, it’s a fine assumption to make.
    - XorNot 11mo ago
      The first impression matters is the thing. This was John Carmacks idea on how to sell interlacing to smartphone display makers for VR: the upsell he had was that there's one very important moment when a consumer sees a new phone: they pick it up, open something and flick it and that scroll effect better be a silky smooth 60 FPS or more or there's trouble. (His argument was making that better would be a side effect of what he really wanted).
    - brokenmachine 11mo ago
      Call me a dinosaur, but I don't consider a 154Gb download before I can start playing a good first impression. In fact, I would seriously consider even buying a game that big if I knew beforehand. When a 500Gb SSD is $120 Aussie bucks, that's $37 of storage.

colechristensen 11mo ago

>But over 6x the size with so little benefit for such a small segment of the players is very frustrating. Why wasn't this caught earlier? Why didn't anyone test? Why didn't anyone weigh the pros and cons? Have you never worked in an organization that made software? Damn near everything can be 10x as fast and using 1/10th the resources if someone bothered to take the time to find the optimizations. RARE is it that something is even in the same order of magnitude as its optimum implementation.

ozgrakkurt 11mo ago
This is not a reason for accepting it imo
- mywittyname 11mo ago
  Optimization takes up time, and often it takes up the time of an expert. Given that, people need to accept higher costs, longer development times, or reduced scope if they want better optimized games. But what is worse, is just trying to optimize software is not the same as successfully optimizing it. So time and money spent on optimization might yield no results because there might not be anymore efficiency to be gained, the person doing the work lacks the technical skill, the gains are part of a tradeoff that cannot be justified, or the person doing the work can't make a change (i.e., a 3rd party library is the problem). The lack of technical skill is a big one, IMO. I'm personally terrible at optimizing code, but I'm pretty good at building functional software in a short amount of time. We have a person on our team who is really good at it and sometimes he'll come in after me to optimize work that I've done. But he'll spend several multiples of the time I took making it work and hammering out edge cases. Sometimes the savings is worth it.
  - kappaking 11mo ago
    > Given that, people need to accept higher costs, longer development times, or reduced scope if they want better optimized games. God why can’t it just be longer development time. I’m sick of the premature fetuses of games.
    - Cyphusx 11mo ago
      The trade off they're talking about is to arrive at the same end product. The reason games are typically released as "fetuses" is because it reduces the financial risk. Much like any product, you want to get it to market as soon as is sensible in order to see if it's worth continuing to spend time and money on it.
      - mort96 11mo ago
        And this really shouldn't surprise professionals in an industry where everything's always about development velocity and releasing Minimum Viable Products as quickly into the market as possible.
    - maccard 11mo ago
      > God why can’t it just be longer development time. Where do you stop? What do the 5 tech designers do while the 2 engine programmers optimise every last byte of network traffic? > I’m sick of the premature fetuses of games. Come on, keep this sort of crap off here. Games being janky isn't new - look at old console games and they're basically duct taped together. Go back to Half-life 1 in 1998 - the Xen world is complete and utter trash. Go back farther and you have stuff that's literally unplayable [0], or things that were so bad they literally destroyed an entire industry [1], or rendered the game uncompleteable [2]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Jekyll_and_Mr._Hyde_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Jekyll_and_Mr._Hyde_(video... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/jan/30/a-golden-shining-moment-the-true-story-behind-et-the-worst-video-game-ever https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/jan/30/a-golden-shinin... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/gamecollecting/comments/hv63ad/comment/fys0wg9/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gamecollecting/comments/hv63ad/comm...
zamadatix 11mo ago
I think what makes this a bit different from the usual "time/value tradeoff" discussion is bloating the size by 6x-7x was the result of unnecessary work in the name of optimization instead of lack of cycles to spend on optimization.
- mort96 11mo ago
  Eh probably not, it's probably handled by some automated system when making release builds of the game. Sure, implementing that initially was probably some work (or maybe it was just checking a checkbox in some tool), but there's probably not much manual work involved anymore to keep it going. Reverting it now though, when the game is out there on a million systems, requires significant investigation to ensure they're not making things significantly worse for anyone, plus a lot of testing to make sure it doesn't outright break stuff.
  - zamadatix 11mo ago
    Reverting it now was certainly a pile of work, but that's neither here nor there for the portion of the story bothering people. It's like they threw rocks threw the windows years ago to make them slightly clearer to see through and now put a ton of work in to undo that because they discovered that made no sense in reality. It's great they did all the work to fix it after the fact, but that doesn't justify why it was worth throwing rocks through the window in the first place (which is different than not doing optimizations).
thaumasiotes 11mo ago
But this isn't an optimization. The 150+GB size is the "optimization", one that never actually helped with anything. The whole news here is "Helldivers 2 stopped intentionally screwing its customers". I don't see why it's a surprise that people react "negatively", in the sense of being mad that (a) Helldivers 2 was intentionally screwing the customers before, and (b) everyone else is still doing it.
- bigstrat2003 11mo ago
  > The whole news here is "Helldivers 2 stopped intentionally screwing its customers". That is an extremely disingenuous way to frame the issue.
  - thaumasiotes 11mo ago
    How so?

teamonkey 11mo ago

It was a choice, not an oversight. They actively optimised for HDD users, because they believed that failing to do so could impact load times for both SSD and HDD users. There was no speed penalty in doing so for SSD users, just a disk usage penalty. Helldivers II was also much smaller at launch than it is now. It was almost certainly a good choice at launch.

mort96 11mo ago
You make a million decisions in the beginning of every project. I'm certain they made the choice to do this "optimization" at an early point (or even incidentally copied the choice over from an earlier project) at a stage where the disk footprint was small (a game being 7GB when it could've been 1GB doesn't exactly set off alarm bells). Then they just didn't reconsider the choice until, well, now.
- teamonkey 11mo ago
  Even at the end of development it’s a sensible choice. It’s the default strategy for catering to machines with slow disk access. The risk of some players experiencing slow load times is catastrophic at launch. In absence of solid user data, it’s a fine assumption to make.
  - XorNot 11mo ago
    The first impression matters is the thing. This was John Carmacks idea on how to sell interlacing to smartphone display makers for VR: the upsell he had was that there's one very important moment when a consumer sees a new phone: they pick it up, open something and flick it and that scroll effect better be a silky smooth 60 FPS or more or there's trouble. (His argument was making that better would be a side effect of what he really wanted).
  - brokenmachine 11mo ago
    Call me a dinosaur, but I don't consider a 154Gb download before I can start playing a good first impression. In fact, I would seriously consider even buying a game that big if I knew beforehand. When a 500Gb SSD is $120 Aussie bucks, that's $37 of storage.