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This is a key part of the AI love/hate flame war. Very easy to write it off when it spins out on the open-ended problems, without seeing just how effective it

This is a key part of the AI love/hate flame war. Very easy to write it off when it spins out on the open-ended problems, without seeing just how effective it can be once you zoom in. Of course, zooming in that far gives back some of the promised gains. Edit: typo

thewebguyd 10mo ago
> without seeing just how effective it can be once you zoom in. The love/hate flame war continues because the LLM companies aren't selling you on this. The hype is all about "this tech will enable non-experts to do things they couldn't do before" not "this tech will help already existing experts with their specific niche," hence the disconnect between the sales hype and reality. If OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, etc. were all honest and tempered their own hype and misleading marketing, I doubt there would even be a flame war. The marketing hype is "this will replace employees" without the required fine print of "this tool still needs to be operated by an expert in the field and not your average non technical manager."
- hombre_fatal 10mo ago
  The amount of GUIs I've vibe-coded works against your claim. As we speak, my macOS menubar has an iStat Menus replacement, a Wispr Flow replacement (global hotkey for speech-to-text), and a logs visualizer for the `blocky` dns filtering program -- all of which I built without reading code aside from where I was curious. It was so vibe-coded that there was no reason to use SwiftUI nor set them up in Xcode -- just AppKit Swift files compiled into macOS apps when I nix rebuild. The only effort it required was the energy to QA the LLM's progress and tell it where to improve, maybe click and drag a screenshot into claude code chat if I'm feeling excessive. Where do my 20 years of software dev experience fit into this except beyond imparting my aesthetic preferences? In fact, insisting that you write code yourself is becoming a liability in an interesting way: you're going to make trade-offs for DX that the LLM doesn't have to make, like when you use Python or Electron when the LLM can bypass those abstractions that only exist for human brains.
  - onethought 10mo ago
    Love that you are disagreeing with parent by saying you built software all on your own, and you only had 20 years software experience. Isn't that the point they are making?
    - hombre_fatal 10mo ago
      Maybe I didn't make it clear, but I didn't build the software in my comment. A clanker did. Vibe-coding is a claude code <-> QA loop on the end result that anyone can do (the non-experts in his claim). An example of a cycle looks like "now add an Options tab that let's me customize the global hotkey" where I'm only an end-user. Once again, where do my 20 years of software experience come up in a process where I don't even read code?
      - onethought 10mo ago
        But anyone didn't do it... you an expert in software development did it. I would hazard a guess that your knowledge lead to better prompts, better approach... heck even understanding how to build a status bar menu on Mac OS is slightly expert knowledge. You are illustrating the GP's point, not negating it.
        hombre_fatal 10mo ago
        > I would hazard a guess that your knowledge lead to better prompts, better approach... heck even understanding how to build a status bar menu on Mac OS is slightly expert knowledge. You're imagining that I'm giving Claude technical advice, but that is the point I'm trying to make: I am not. This is what "vibe-coding" tries to specify. I am only giving Claude UX feedback from using the app it makes. "Add a dropdown that lets me change the girth". Now, I do have a natural taste for UX as a software user, and through that I can drive Claude to make a pretty good app. But my software engineering skills are not utilized... except for that one time I told Claude to use an AGDT because I fancy them.
        10mo ago
hombre_fatal 10mo ago
Go one level up: claude2() { claude "$(claude "Generate a prompt and TODO list that works towards this goal: <goal>$*</goal>" -p)" } $ claude2 pls give ranked ideas for make code better

thewebguyd 10mo ago

> without seeing just how effective it can be once you zoom in. The love/hate flame war continues because the LLM companies aren't selling you on this. The hype is all about "this tech will enable non-experts to do things they couldn't do before" not "this tech will help already existing experts with their specific niche," hence the disconnect between the sales hype and reality. If OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, etc. were all honest and tempered their own hype and misleading marketing, I doubt there would even be a flame war. The marketing hype is "this will replace employees" without the required fine print of "this tool still needs to be operated by an expert in the field and not your average non technical manager."

hombre_fatal 10mo ago
The amount of GUIs I've vibe-coded works against your claim. As we speak, my macOS menubar has an iStat Menus replacement, a Wispr Flow replacement (global hotkey for speech-to-text), and a logs visualizer for the `blocky` dns filtering program -- all of which I built without reading code aside from where I was curious. It was so vibe-coded that there was no reason to use SwiftUI nor set them up in Xcode -- just AppKit Swift files compiled into macOS apps when I nix rebuild. The only effort it required was the energy to QA the LLM's progress and tell it where to improve, maybe click and drag a screenshot into claude code chat if I'm feeling excessive. Where do my 20 years of software dev experience fit into this except beyond imparting my aesthetic preferences? In fact, insisting that you write code yourself is becoming a liability in an interesting way: you're going to make trade-offs for DX that the LLM doesn't have to make, like when you use Python or Electron when the LLM can bypass those abstractions that only exist for human brains.
- onethought 10mo ago
  Love that you are disagreeing with parent by saying you built software all on your own, and you only had 20 years software experience. Isn't that the point they are making?
  - hombre_fatal 10mo ago
    Maybe I didn't make it clear, but I didn't build the software in my comment. A clanker did. Vibe-coding is a claude code <-> QA loop on the end result that anyone can do (the non-experts in his claim). An example of a cycle looks like "now add an Options tab that let's me customize the global hotkey" where I'm only an end-user. Once again, where do my 20 years of software experience come up in a process where I don't even read code?
    - onethought 10mo ago
      But anyone didn't do it... you an expert in software development did it. I would hazard a guess that your knowledge lead to better prompts, better approach... heck even understanding how to build a status bar menu on Mac OS is slightly expert knowledge. You are illustrating the GP's point, not negating it.
      - hombre_fatal 10mo ago
        > I would hazard a guess that your knowledge lead to better prompts, better approach... heck even understanding how to build a status bar menu on Mac OS is slightly expert knowledge. You're imagining that I'm giving Claude technical advice, but that is the point I'm trying to make: I am not. This is what "vibe-coding" tries to specify. I am only giving Claude UX feedback from using the app it makes. "Add a dropdown that lets me change the girth". Now, I do have a natural taste for UX as a software user, and through that I can drive Claude to make a pretty good app. But my software engineering skills are not utilized... except for that one time I told Claude to use an AGDT because I fancy them.
        10mo ago

hombre_fatal 10mo ago

Go one level up: claude2() { claude "$(claude "Generate a prompt and TODO list that works towards this goal: <goal>$*</goal>" -p)" } $ claude2 pls give ranked ideas for make code better