3 ms·

You point out the cultural issue that this creates and sweep it under the rug, violently. The thought model complicates the process of writing new code, "what

by Yokohiii 11mo ago

You point out the cultural issue that this creates and sweep it under the rug, violently. The thought model complicates the process of writing new code, "what pattern do i need here?" and the perception of existing code, "oh this is pattern X, why isn't that communicated clearly?". The truth is that design patterns are at best stagnant in quality and quantity over time (GoF is over 30 years old!), but the quantity and quality of problems is infinite. I've thought in patterns quite some time in my early career. With my colleague back then everything was an pattern and we were kind of in sync with that approach. But it quickly falls apart if you have peers that are less try hard on it. You can spend days, weeks, months to study design patterns and then have to explain it to someone in 5 minutes that simply doesn't care. I can't blame anyone to not care, so that has to be accounted for. I think the common language argument is tempting, but also too stressed. Good and useful programming knowledge is bound by reality. An integer is a indisputable thing that is always useful. A "singleton" is just a fancy rephrasing of "global state".

palata 11mo ago
I did not mean "everybody has to learn the vocabulary". I meant the opposite, actually: it's fine not to know the word for the tool (I don't enjoy reading about patterns just to learn about patterns, it's not my thing at all). Say I build a tool that makes it easier for me to drive a nail and call it a "Naildriver". If I show it to a colleague, they may be able to tell me "oh, this is generally called a hammer!". Maybe they will even tell me how I may improve my hammer, because they happen to like to learn about hammers in their free time. Or maybe now that they said it's a known concept, I will enjoy reading about hammers online (doesn't mean I will now read the entire encyclopedia of tools). The fact that there is a name for the concept ("it's called a hammer") does not say you have to know the word. It's just useful to have a word for it, because then we can reference it in discussions and share knowledge about it more easily.
- berkes 11mo ago
  The other thing that design patterns allow, is to learn pitfalls, applications and other attributes about them. To keep in your analogy, if you have a 3KG naildriver with a 2m handle you'll quickly find out that driving nails into a drywall with that leaves you with no wall. And that it's a bad idea to use a "Naildriver" to drive these "spiralled-slothead-nails" (aka screws) into wood. But with a common language, such as design patterns, you can easily learn where they are good, what their limits are, in what cases other patterns fit better, and what pitfalls to avoid and so on. If I search the web for "why is it so hard for my naildriver to drive in spiralled-slothead-nails" I'll get zero results. But when I search for "why is it hard to hammer in a screw" I'll get good results. May sound like a silly example, but for me that sillyness illustrates how obvious designpatters should be.
  - palata 11mo ago
    I totally agree with that! And it doesn't mean at all that everybody should learn the whole encyclopedia of tools by heart. But having it formalised somewhere is useful: as soon as someone tells me "what you're trying to do sounds like this design pattern", I can start searching and reading about it. Of course if that someone tells me "you suck, you should know that there is a design pattern for that because you should read about design patterns every night before you go to sleep", it will be different :-).
    - Yokohiii 11mo ago
      I have mixed feelings about this. I think Julian Assange once said he would refer to things in discussion just as "Tomato" (or similar), in discussion to have a shortcut for something unnamed with some meaning. We do this all day in programming, we give a complex component a name and it means a lot more then just the actual word. The problem is that this specific meaning is often not universal, it's contextual. If you take a hammer, an integer and design patterns, the latter is the least universal thing. They depend on domain, context and conventions, and can change quite a lot depending on the language. Removing hammers and integers from the world would cause collapse, removing design patterns would do almost nothing. I guess the active celebration of design patterns as a catalogue of general wisdom is my primary issue here. I'd welcome any project/team/company that maintains a catalogue of their individual "patterns". But a universal source of truth has too much bible flavor to me. (Oh it also dictates OOP by default which renders it's inherent "wisdom" completely useless in many languages)
      - palata 11mo ago
        I feel like we're talking past each other. I tend to agree with you, I don't like having a "bible" and "celebration of design patterns as a catalogue of general wisdom". But formalising concepts with words makes sense. If your company maintains a catalogue of their patterns, and someone happens to know that this specific pattern is usually called a "singleton", I would find it weird to call it a tomato. Some patterns have different names in different contexts or languages, and that's fine. I don't find it weird to have a discussion around "in this language there is this pattern that they call X, does that ring a bell for you working on that other language? The idea is [...]", and maybe the answer is "yep we have it too" or "oh, we call that Y, but that's pretty similar".
rglynn 11mo ago
> The truth is that design patterns are at best stagnant in quality and quantity over time (GoF is over 30 years old!), but the quantity and quality of problems is infinite. I think once you have spent enough time in a software space, nothing is really new under the sun. That's why I think the GoF has aged well (controversial opinion I know!).
socketcluster 10mo ago
This is a good point, nowadays I always try to account for human psychology. Like a tool might be a positive in some way but maybe it will have a negative impact on people's morale and it might end up being a negative. Or some tool makes it easier to write code safely, but in doing so, it encourages people to architect their code in a certain over-complicated way and it ends up being a net negative.

palata 11mo ago

I did not mean "everybody has to learn the vocabulary". I meant the opposite, actually: it's fine not to know the word for the tool (I don't enjoy reading about patterns just to learn about patterns, it's not my thing at all). Say I build a tool that makes it easier for me to drive a nail and call it a "Naildriver". If I show it to a colleague, they may be able to tell me "oh, this is generally called a hammer!". Maybe they will even tell me how I may improve my hammer, because they happen to like to learn about hammers in their free time. Or maybe now that they said it's a known concept, I will enjoy reading about hammers online (doesn't mean I will now read the entire encyclopedia of tools). The fact that there is a name for the concept ("it's called a hammer") does not say you have to know the word. It's just useful to have a word for it, because then we can reference it in discussions and share knowledge about it more easily.

berkes 11mo ago
The other thing that design patterns allow, is to learn pitfalls, applications and other attributes about them. To keep in your analogy, if you have a 3KG naildriver with a 2m handle you'll quickly find out that driving nails into a drywall with that leaves you with no wall. And that it's a bad idea to use a "Naildriver" to drive these "spiralled-slothead-nails" (aka screws) into wood. But with a common language, such as design patterns, you can easily learn where they are good, what their limits are, in what cases other patterns fit better, and what pitfalls to avoid and so on. If I search the web for "why is it so hard for my naildriver to drive in spiralled-slothead-nails" I'll get zero results. But when I search for "why is it hard to hammer in a screw" I'll get good results. May sound like a silly example, but for me that sillyness illustrates how obvious designpatters should be.
- palata 11mo ago
  I totally agree with that! And it doesn't mean at all that everybody should learn the whole encyclopedia of tools by heart. But having it formalised somewhere is useful: as soon as someone tells me "what you're trying to do sounds like this design pattern", I can start searching and reading about it. Of course if that someone tells me "you suck, you should know that there is a design pattern for that because you should read about design patterns every night before you go to sleep", it will be different :-).
  - Yokohiii 11mo ago
    I have mixed feelings about this. I think Julian Assange once said he would refer to things in discussion just as "Tomato" (or similar), in discussion to have a shortcut for something unnamed with some meaning. We do this all day in programming, we give a complex component a name and it means a lot more then just the actual word. The problem is that this specific meaning is often not universal, it's contextual. If you take a hammer, an integer and design patterns, the latter is the least universal thing. They depend on domain, context and conventions, and can change quite a lot depending on the language. Removing hammers and integers from the world would cause collapse, removing design patterns would do almost nothing. I guess the active celebration of design patterns as a catalogue of general wisdom is my primary issue here. I'd welcome any project/team/company that maintains a catalogue of their individual "patterns". But a universal source of truth has too much bible flavor to me. (Oh it also dictates OOP by default which renders it's inherent "wisdom" completely useless in many languages)
    - palata 11mo ago
      I feel like we're talking past each other. I tend to agree with you, I don't like having a "bible" and "celebration of design patterns as a catalogue of general wisdom". But formalising concepts with words makes sense. If your company maintains a catalogue of their patterns, and someone happens to know that this specific pattern is usually called a "singleton", I would find it weird to call it a tomato. Some patterns have different names in different contexts or languages, and that's fine. I don't find it weird to have a discussion around "in this language there is this pattern that they call X, does that ring a bell for you working on that other language? The idea is [...]", and maybe the answer is "yep we have it too" or "oh, we call that Y, but that's pretty similar".

rglynn 11mo ago

> The truth is that design patterns are at best stagnant in quality and quantity over time (GoF is over 30 years old!), but the quantity and quality of problems is infinite. I think once you have spent enough time in a software space, nothing is really new under the sun. That's why I think the GoF has aged well (controversial opinion I know!).

socketcluster 10mo ago

This is a good point, nowadays I always try to account for human psychology. Like a tool might be a positive in some way but maybe it will have a negative impact on people's morale and it might end up being a negative. Or some tool makes it easier to write code safely, but in doing so, it encourages people to architect their code in a certain over-complicated way and it ends up being a net negative.