6 ms·

The next frontier: 'Seasteading' the oceans

23 points by peter123 18y ago

quoderat 18y ago
This reminds me of the equally-doomed idea during the '60s to build underwater homes.
- ivankirigin 18y ago
  Underwater is much hard than seasteading. I wouldn't call them equally doomed at all. The free state project mentioned is an indication that this is actually viable. They want thousands of people to move to New Hampshire to change the state to be more libertarian. 700 already have. I think that means you can get a few hundred people to move to a man made island, if the conditions on the island were acceptable. The best outcome would be a confederation of city states that only interact via trading and mutual defense. There is essentially zero competition in government, and this would change that.
  - byrneseyeview 18y ago
    The free state project mentioned is an indication that this is actually viable. They want thousands of people to move to New Hampshire to change the state to be more libertarian. 700 already have. The fact that they can almost get people to move to a different state is evidence that they can get people to move to new man-made islands? Seasteading would be great, but actually getting it started looks really difficult.
    - ivankirigin 18y ago
      In my understanding, the islands are much smaller. I think 100 people would be enough, though that would largely depend on the design.
      - byrneseyeview 18y ago
        That's true, but the investment per person is much higher; you don't have to build land and protect it from pirates in New Hampshire.
        olefoo 18y ago
        You're calling your libertarian credentials into question there; a _real_ libertarian (for extreme values of real) would reply that you do, it's just that in New Hampshire the pirates call themselves the IRS and the Department of Revenue.
  - quoderat 18y ago
    I would, and did, call them equally-doomed. Barring global calamity, I can confidently predict that not a single one of these will exist in a decade.
    - nazgulnarsil 18y ago
      care to put your money where your mouth is in a prediction market?
      - patio11 18y ago
        If he's paying taxes, he already has, now hasn't he.
- ryanwaggoner 18y ago
  From what I understand, something like 1 in 4 homes in America are underwater right now :)
marketer 18y ago
A large number of ultra-wealthy people living on a vulnerable platform in the middle of the sea. And because they live in international waters, they aren't protected by any nation. Could there possibly be a better target for pirates?
- ivankirigin 18y ago
  Don't you think an ultra libertarian island would have at least a few guns? Hell, they'd probably have a robot army and strategic nukes.
  - justindz 18y ago
    A bunch of ultra-libertarians with guns could probably defend against well-organized and reasonably armed pirates. The odds would be better if they trained, had defense shifts and/or patrols and did other militaristic things. Being purely reactive and without any kind of regimentation probably wouldn't work well. I wonder if that isn't the seed for a form of organization that isn't as free as people would want it to be. Alternately, I'm sure you could hire mercenaries, but then you'd want some counter-balance to their opportunity to turn against you or go rogue. Are there historical precedents for reactive and non-professional--note, I don't mean non-talented--defenses against outside forces that aren't a fluke (e.g. occur several times with the same defending group)? You probably wouldn't want a big mutually-assured destruction style deterrent without the kinds of controls listed above, either.
    - ivankirigin 18y ago
      It was very common for those on the American frontier to defend themselves. I think that is a reasonable precedent. Some of the only laws I would pass on an island would be outlawing violence and establishing mechanisms to enforce this, especially from outside attacks. There are certainly private forces that could get the job done, and I can even imagine a libertarian society decreeing that the government must contract out to multiple competing parties to enforce the laws. The note about MAD is interesting because it is so easy to destroy a village size seastead.
- 18y ago
mixmax 18y ago
This is a very hard engineering problem. And very very expensive. There are loads of problems, some such as hurricanes and rogue waves discussed in the article, and some such as fire not discussed. None of which are trivial. Basically what they are talking about is an oil rig without the oil equipment. These will set you back many hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions. And they still aren't 100% safe. In 1988 a fire broke out on the piper alpha [+] platform in the North Sea, resulting in the death of 2/3 of the crew. The whole platform sank to the bottom of the ocean. And as marketer notes in the above comment security is a huge issue too. [+] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_Alpha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_Alpha [+]Video: http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&hs=03m&q=piper+alpha&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=YXaHSbu1Os-g-gbYnPAr&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title# http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&client=firefox...
- gravitycop 18y ago
  some [problems] such as fire not discussed. Fire protection is discussed on the seasteading website: http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aseasteading.org+fire http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aseasteading.org+fire The structures are generally envisioned to be made of concrete (or cementitious composite), a fireproof material. In 1988 a fire broke out on the piper alpha [+] platform in the North Sea, resulting in the death of 2/3 of the crew. Perhaps oil had something to do with that fire. Are seasteading spars necessarily loaded with oil?
  - mixmax 18y ago
    The risk is obviously much bigger on an oil rig, but fire at sea is a very real problem, and something that haunts all sailors. The problem is twofold: 1) You have to put the fire out yourself, the fire department or coast guard won't be able to reach you before it's too late. 2) You have nowhere to go.
rrival 18y ago
Enjoys watching as Snow Crash converges with reality
gibsonf1 18y ago
From a strictly architectural viewpoint, the concept design has a serious flaw. Note that in the inboard units have only windows that look directly at the windows of the inboard unit on the other side. I can't imagine someone taking the risk to live on the ocean, and for a view, can only see in the window of their neighbor. The design definitely needs improvement :)

23 points by peter123 18y ago

quoderat 18y ago

This reminds me of the equally-doomed idea during the '60s to build underwater homes.

ivankirigin 18y ago
Underwater is much hard than seasteading. I wouldn't call them equally doomed at all. The free state project mentioned is an indication that this is actually viable. They want thousands of people to move to New Hampshire to change the state to be more libertarian. 700 already have. I think that means you can get a few hundred people to move to a man made island, if the conditions on the island were acceptable. The best outcome would be a confederation of city states that only interact via trading and mutual defense. There is essentially zero competition in government, and this would change that.
- byrneseyeview 18y ago
  The free state project mentioned is an indication that this is actually viable. They want thousands of people to move to New Hampshire to change the state to be more libertarian. 700 already have. The fact that they can almost get people to move to a different state is evidence that they can get people to move to new man-made islands? Seasteading would be great, but actually getting it started looks really difficult.
  - ivankirigin 18y ago
    In my understanding, the islands are much smaller. I think 100 people would be enough, though that would largely depend on the design.
    - byrneseyeview 18y ago
      That's true, but the investment per person is much higher; you don't have to build land and protect it from pirates in New Hampshire.
      - olefoo 18y ago
        You're calling your libertarian credentials into question there; a _real_ libertarian (for extreme values of real) would reply that you do, it's just that in New Hampshire the pirates call themselves the IRS and the Department of Revenue.
- quoderat 18y ago
  I would, and did, call them equally-doomed. Barring global calamity, I can confidently predict that not a single one of these will exist in a decade.
  - nazgulnarsil 18y ago
    care to put your money where your mouth is in a prediction market?
    - patio11 18y ago
      If he's paying taxes, he already has, now hasn't he.
ryanwaggoner 18y ago
From what I understand, something like 1 in 4 homes in America are underwater right now :)

marketer 18y ago

A large number of ultra-wealthy people living on a vulnerable platform in the middle of the sea. And because they live in international waters, they aren't protected by any nation. Could there possibly be a better target for pirates?

ivankirigin 18y ago
Don't you think an ultra libertarian island would have at least a few guns? Hell, they'd probably have a robot army and strategic nukes.
- justindz 18y ago
  A bunch of ultra-libertarians with guns could probably defend against well-organized and reasonably armed pirates. The odds would be better if they trained, had defense shifts and/or patrols and did other militaristic things. Being purely reactive and without any kind of regimentation probably wouldn't work well. I wonder if that isn't the seed for a form of organization that isn't as free as people would want it to be. Alternately, I'm sure you could hire mercenaries, but then you'd want some counter-balance to their opportunity to turn against you or go rogue. Are there historical precedents for reactive and non-professional--note, I don't mean non-talented--defenses against outside forces that aren't a fluke (e.g. occur several times with the same defending group)? You probably wouldn't want a big mutually-assured destruction style deterrent without the kinds of controls listed above, either.
  - ivankirigin 18y ago
    It was very common for those on the American frontier to defend themselves. I think that is a reasonable precedent. Some of the only laws I would pass on an island would be outlawing violence and establishing mechanisms to enforce this, especially from outside attacks. There are certainly private forces that could get the job done, and I can even imagine a libertarian society decreeing that the government must contract out to multiple competing parties to enforce the laws. The note about MAD is interesting because it is so easy to destroy a village size seastead.
18y ago

mixmax 18y ago

This is a very hard engineering problem. And very very expensive. There are loads of problems, some such as hurricanes and rogue waves discussed in the article, and some such as fire not discussed. None of which are trivial. Basically what they are talking about is an oil rig without the oil equipment. These will set you back many hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions. And they still aren't 100% safe. In 1988 a fire broke out on the piper alpha [+] platform in the North Sea, resulting in the death of 2/3 of the crew. The whole platform sank to the bottom of the ocean. And as marketer notes in the above comment security is a huge issue too. [+] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_Alpha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_Alpha [+]Video: http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&hs=03m&q=piper+alpha&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=YXaHSbu1Os-g-gbYnPAr&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title# http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&client=firefox...

gravitycop 18y ago
some [problems] such as fire not discussed. Fire protection is discussed on the seasteading website: http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aseasteading.org+fire http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aseasteading.org+fire The structures are generally envisioned to be made of concrete (or cementitious composite), a fireproof material. In 1988 a fire broke out on the piper alpha [+] platform in the North Sea, resulting in the death of 2/3 of the crew. Perhaps oil had something to do with that fire. Are seasteading spars necessarily loaded with oil?
- mixmax 18y ago
  The risk is obviously much bigger on an oil rig, but fire at sea is a very real problem, and something that haunts all sailors. The problem is twofold: 1) You have to put the fire out yourself, the fire department or coast guard won't be able to reach you before it's too late. 2) You have nowhere to go.

rrival 18y ago

Enjoys watching as Snow Crash converges with reality

gibsonf1 18y ago

From a strictly architectural viewpoint, the concept design has a serious flaw. Note that in the inboard units have only windows that look directly at the windows of the inboard unit on the other side. I can't imagine someone taking the risk to live on the ocean, and for a view, can only see in the window of their neighbor. The design definitely needs improvement :)