3 ms·

> These are government regulations regarding kids. No, they aren't just that, because they are government regulations requiring everyone wanting access to some

> These are government regulations regarding kids. No, they aren't just that, because they are government regulations requiring everyone wanting access to something that cannot be marketed to children under the rules to prove that they are not a child, which is not inherently essential to a regulation of what can be marketed to children. There is a difference between regulating what can be marketed to children and mandating that vendors secure proof that every user is not a child. (Just as there is a difference between prohibiting knowingly supplying terrorists and requiring every seller to conduct a detailed background check of every customer to assure that they are not a terrorist.)

ulbu 11mo ago
alcohol, cigarettes?..
- notpushkin 11mo ago
  Yes, but those are in the physical world. [1] In digital realm, having to verify your ID has way more consequences. My passport has been leaked and I have a “quick cash loan” in my name as a result of that. --- [1]: Tangentially, those are trivially circumvented in many countries. When I was a teenager in St. Petersburg, we’ve used a “duty free delivery service”, which (I suppose) just stocked liquor at the duty free shop on the border with Finland, and then sold it. Not sure how legal was the core premise (probably not), but we used it because their couriers didn’t even pretend they need to check our passports (definitely illegal). In many countries, alcohol is available in grocery delivery services. Couriers happily leave your order at the doorstep even though they are supposed to check your ID. In many other countries, even buying in-store is possible (e.g. Japan, where in any konbini you can just press a button on screen saying “yes, I’m 21”).
  - SoftTalker 11mo ago
    So stupid. An image of an ID should never be a replacement for the actual ID for future use. I hope that loan was easy to dispute.
    - notpushkin 11mo ago
      I hope it will be! The creditor says something along the lines of “you’ve confirmed your phone number using SMS code so it must be you; no, we won’t tell you which number we’ve sent the code to, that would be privacy violation”. I’ve tried everything I could do online and nah, nobody really cares. I think I still can dispute it in court, but for that I’ll have to go back to Russia. (I could hire a lawyer, but the amount is like $300.)
- bgbntty2 11mo ago
  It's different. You show an ID card to a human if you don't look old enough. They look at it and return it. The ID card doesn't get scanned or tied to all your future recreational drug purchases - you don't have an account or a trail that identifies you. When uploading ID documents, your account gets tied to your real world identity. That's not a precedent the government should be setting, because private entities having an excuse (the law) to require identification erodes privacy, and because in the future other services could be required to ask for an identification, too. Yes, it's the slippery slope (aka "boiling the frog") argument, but that's how laws that erode privacy evolve - step by step. Now it's account for social media, then it's porn sites, then it's forums where you might see porn or discussions on suicide, drugs or anything deemed morally hazardous. They might require an ID just to view the site or require the site to not make it public. If (or "when", if we don't oppose such laws) enough countries mandate something like this, most sites will likely require an account for all content, regardless of where the person is located, as otherwise they'll likely have to prove that they've not only geolocated the IP of the visitor, but checked that they weren't using VPNs, Tor or similar services. As for using zero-knowledge proofs and similar technology to make it less infringing on privacy - I very much doubt the government (any government) to implement this with 100% privacy and security.
  - dragonwriter 11mo ago
    > Now it's account for social media, then it's porn sites Actually, in lots of places it was porn sites first, but...
  - nmfisher 11mo ago
    > they look at it and return it. The ID card doesn't get scanned Actually in Australia, IDs usually do get scanned and stored. About the same time I was getting too old for clubs, they were starting to introduce ID scanners. You line up, hand over your driver's licence or passport, they slap it on a wall-mounted scanner, the scan goes into a database and in you go. No scan, no entry. Nowadays I think they just use phone/tablet scanners.
    - anakaine 11mo ago
immibis 11mo ago
It actually doesn't say they must verify ID. It says "reasonable steps". Actually, it says they must NOT verify ID unless they also have a way to do it without verifying ID. The fine for requiring an ID upload is the same as the fine for letting minors on the platform (30k penalty units, whatever that means). Of course, nobody is sure what "reasonable steps" actually means, other than a selfie or ID upload. Here is the text of the bill: https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;db=LEGISLATION;id=legislation%2Fbills%2Fr7284_aspassed%2F0001;query=Id%3A%22legislation%2Fbills%2Fr7284_aspassed%2F0000%22 https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display....
- anticensor 11mo ago
  A penalty unit is an inflation-indexed, revenue-indexed fine.

ulbu 11mo ago

alcohol, cigarettes?..

notpushkin 11mo ago
Yes, but those are in the physical world. [1] In digital realm, having to verify your ID has way more consequences. My passport has been leaked and I have a “quick cash loan” in my name as a result of that. --- [1]: Tangentially, those are trivially circumvented in many countries. When I was a teenager in St. Petersburg, we’ve used a “duty free delivery service”, which (I suppose) just stocked liquor at the duty free shop on the border with Finland, and then sold it. Not sure how legal was the core premise (probably not), but we used it because their couriers didn’t even pretend they need to check our passports (definitely illegal). In many countries, alcohol is available in grocery delivery services. Couriers happily leave your order at the doorstep even though they are supposed to check your ID. In many other countries, even buying in-store is possible (e.g. Japan, where in any konbini you can just press a button on screen saying “yes, I’m 21”).
- SoftTalker 11mo ago
  So stupid. An image of an ID should never be a replacement for the actual ID for future use. I hope that loan was easy to dispute.
  - notpushkin 11mo ago
    I hope it will be! The creditor says something along the lines of “you’ve confirmed your phone number using SMS code so it must be you; no, we won’t tell you which number we’ve sent the code to, that would be privacy violation”. I’ve tried everything I could do online and nah, nobody really cares. I think I still can dispute it in court, but for that I’ll have to go back to Russia. (I could hire a lawyer, but the amount is like $300.)
bgbntty2 11mo ago
It's different. You show an ID card to a human if you don't look old enough. They look at it and return it. The ID card doesn't get scanned or tied to all your future recreational drug purchases - you don't have an account or a trail that identifies you. When uploading ID documents, your account gets tied to your real world identity. That's not a precedent the government should be setting, because private entities having an excuse (the law) to require identification erodes privacy, and because in the future other services could be required to ask for an identification, too. Yes, it's the slippery slope (aka "boiling the frog") argument, but that's how laws that erode privacy evolve - step by step. Now it's account for social media, then it's porn sites, then it's forums where you might see porn or discussions on suicide, drugs or anything deemed morally hazardous. They might require an ID just to view the site or require the site to not make it public. If (or "when", if we don't oppose such laws) enough countries mandate something like this, most sites will likely require an account for all content, regardless of where the person is located, as otherwise they'll likely have to prove that they've not only geolocated the IP of the visitor, but checked that they weren't using VPNs, Tor or similar services. As for using zero-knowledge proofs and similar technology to make it less infringing on privacy - I very much doubt the government (any government) to implement this with 100% privacy and security.
- dragonwriter 11mo ago
  > Now it's account for social media, then it's porn sites Actually, in lots of places it was porn sites first, but...
- nmfisher 11mo ago
  > they look at it and return it. The ID card doesn't get scanned Actually in Australia, IDs usually do get scanned and stored. About the same time I was getting too old for clubs, they were starting to introduce ID scanners. You line up, hand over your driver's licence or passport, they slap it on a wall-mounted scanner, the scan goes into a database and in you go. No scan, no entry. Nowadays I think they just use phone/tablet scanners.
  - anakaine 11mo ago

immibis 11mo ago

It actually doesn't say they must verify ID. It says "reasonable steps". Actually, it says they must NOT verify ID unless they also have a way to do it without verifying ID. The fine for requiring an ID upload is the same as the fine for letting minors on the platform (30k penalty units, whatever that means). Of course, nobody is sure what "reasonable steps" actually means, other than a selfie or ID upload. Here is the text of the bill: https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;db=LEGISLATION;id=legislation%2Fbills%2Fr7284_aspassed%2F0001;query=Id%3A%22legislation%2Fbills%2Fr7284_aspassed%2F0000%22 https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display....

anticensor 11mo ago
A penalty unit is an inflation-indexed, revenue-indexed fine.