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> Those employees and service workers take the subway. Not the ones who need to bring service vehicles with them. Not anyone who has to enter or return with he

by autoexec 10mo ago

> Those employees and service workers take the subway. Not the ones who need to bring service vehicles with them. Not anyone who has to enter or return with heavy items or any number of the other many many reasons people choose to drive and not take the subway. The fact of the matter is that the subway has always been an option for many people, but not all people and it comes with costs of its own. The people driving into the city, as obnoxious as that trip is, were making the decision to put up with the traffic and parking for a reason. Now many of those people, enough to make measurable differences in pollution levels, have been priced out of that choice. "It's only a few poors, why are people bitching about it?" isn't going to make people across the country worry any less about it spreading to them. > The subway is both faster and cheaper than driving in NYC at peak hours. And also not an option at all for many and a less attractive option for many, as noted by the number of people who were driving. It's not as if the subway is a well kept secret. > Right but that isn't true. Just because you say it isn't doesn't make it true. Show me that millionaires are taking the subway because of the increased fines at the same rate as the hourly workers and I'll concede that the impact is being equally felt.

jeffbee 10mo ago
Again, this conversation would be so much more rewarding if you had read the paper and established a minimal level of factual basis for your statements. The number of light vehicles (cars, vans, pickups) entering the zone has not declined! At all!
- autoexec 10mo ago
  > Again, this conversation would be so much more rewarding if you had read the paper and established a minimal level of factual basis for your statements. The number of light vehicles (cars, vans, pickups) entering the zone has not declined! At all! The question was "How has congestion pricing become a national issue" and the answer isn't "the nation hasn't read this one study". For what it's worth though the study linked in the article does show a reduction in cars entering the zone. (ctrl-F "car" to find that)
afavour 10mo ago
This debate has been done to death. And it's always, always a vague group of people who are apparently affected. Never specific examples. And, as we see here, there's always an appeal to class warfare: "it's hurting the poors". And it's always by someone who wishes to speak on behalf of those poor people, never actually the people themselves. Only 2% of lower income outer borough residents (around 5,000 people) drive a car into the city: https://www.cssny.org/news/entry/congestion-pricing-outer-borough-new-yorkers-poverty-data-analysis https://www.cssny.org/news/entry/congestion-pricing-outer-bo... When the congestion pricing rollout was paused, only 32% of lower income voters supported the move, compared to 55% of those earning more than $100,000: https://www.amny.com/nyc-transit/congestion-pricing-pause-hochul-poll-june-2024/ https://www.amny.com/nyc-transit/congestion-pricing-pause-ho... (AFAIK there isn't direct polling on a yes/no support question by income, this was as close as I could find) The overwhelming majority of poor people in New York City take transit and stand to benefit from the funding congestion pricing brings. Highlighting that 2% of the population and ignoring the 98% is a fundamentally dishonest position to take, especially when you're not even in the group yourself.
- autoexec 10mo ago
  > And it's always, always a vague group of people who are apparently affected. Never specific examples. Someone on the other side of the country is only going to see the way this will impact the lives of people like them. They aren't going to say "Clearly this policy has impacted the household budget of NYC plumber Mitchell Tnenski" They don't know Mitchell. They know that congestion pricing coming to their city would hurt them in very real ways. They also know that rich people don't give a shit about a couple extra bucks in fines for getting where they want to go by car. That's why this issue has resonated nationally.
  - yannyu 10mo ago
    > They know that congestion pricing coming to their city would hurt them in very real ways. But why should they even care to begin with? Just because the news and media made them aware of congestion pricing? This is the whole problem, that local issues are made mainstream news media specifically to cultivate fear and anger in people that literally have no skin in the game and a completely different lifestyle.

jeffbee 10mo ago

Again, this conversation would be so much more rewarding if you had read the paper and established a minimal level of factual basis for your statements. The number of light vehicles (cars, vans, pickups) entering the zone has not declined! At all!

autoexec 10mo ago
> Again, this conversation would be so much more rewarding if you had read the paper and established a minimal level of factual basis for your statements. The number of light vehicles (cars, vans, pickups) entering the zone has not declined! At all! The question was "How has congestion pricing become a national issue" and the answer isn't "the nation hasn't read this one study". For what it's worth though the study linked in the article does show a reduction in cars entering the zone. (ctrl-F "car" to find that)

afavour 10mo ago

This debate has been done to death. And it's always, always a vague group of people who are apparently affected. Never specific examples. And, as we see here, there's always an appeal to class warfare: "it's hurting the poors". And it's always by someone who wishes to speak on behalf of those poor people, never actually the people themselves. Only 2% of lower income outer borough residents (around 5,000 people) drive a car into the city: https://www.cssny.org/news/entry/congestion-pricing-outer-borough-new-yorkers-poverty-data-analysis https://www.cssny.org/news/entry/congestion-pricing-outer-bo... When the congestion pricing rollout was paused, only 32% of lower income voters supported the move, compared to 55% of those earning more than $100,000: https://www.amny.com/nyc-transit/congestion-pricing-pause-hochul-poll-june-2024/ https://www.amny.com/nyc-transit/congestion-pricing-pause-ho... (AFAIK there isn't direct polling on a yes/no support question by income, this was as close as I could find) The overwhelming majority of poor people in New York City take transit and stand to benefit from the funding congestion pricing brings. Highlighting that 2% of the population and ignoring the 98% is a fundamentally dishonest position to take, especially when you're not even in the group yourself.

autoexec 10mo ago
> And it's always, always a vague group of people who are apparently affected. Never specific examples. Someone on the other side of the country is only going to see the way this will impact the lives of people like them. They aren't going to say "Clearly this policy has impacted the household budget of NYC plumber Mitchell Tnenski" They don't know Mitchell. They know that congestion pricing coming to their city would hurt them in very real ways. They also know that rich people don't give a shit about a couple extra bucks in fines for getting where they want to go by car. That's why this issue has resonated nationally.
- yannyu 10mo ago
  > They know that congestion pricing coming to their city would hurt them in very real ways. But why should they even care to begin with? Just because the news and media made them aware of congestion pricing? This is the whole problem, that local issues are made mainstream news media specifically to cultivate fear and anger in people that literally have no skin in the game and a completely different lifestyle.