5 ms·

According to the article, the case stems from a college student who created a business by having his family buy college textbooks in his native Thailand where t

According to the article, the case stems from a college student who created a business by having his family buy college textbooks in his native Thailand where the publishers sell them at a substantial discount, then reselling them on ebay here in the US. Textbook publisher Wiley sued; it was then that the defendant invoked the "first sale" doctrine. Oh the irony. Can someone just disrupt these folks out of existence already?

nekojima 14y ago
I bought those books when I lived in Asia. The savings are huge, upwards of 80%. On the cover it does say "Not for Resale in North America & Europe" or "Not for Resale outside of (country)" on the cover. One note though, these books are usually an "international" edition which excludes some of the content usually found in the North American & European editions, including STEM subjects, which I initially found rather surprising. When I first saw these editions more than ten years ago I had the same thought, of setting up a website and selling to North America and Europe. The main issues were finding sufficient supply (university libraries only order a certain amount for their own students) and that the editions were different. That can make a difference for some subjects and for the assignments.
- gambiting 14y ago
  the "not for resale" note on the cover is completely meaningless. They could also say "if you open this book you owe us 1 billion dollars" and the effect would also be the same - it would have zero ground to stand on in court.
  - rprasad 14y ago
    Actually, when it comes to sales across borders, "Not for Resale Outside of [X country or region" has legal effect in every country that respects copyright. First-sale doctrine is a uniquely American idea; it only applies to (first) sales subject to the jurisdiction of American courts. I.e., it would apply to a sale by Amazon to some dude in Japan and to a sale by Amazon JP to some guy in California, but not to a sale by Amazon KOR to some guy in China, who then resells into the U.S.
    - sjmulder 14y ago
      Of course the US laws on copyright only apply to the US, but the idea behind the first-sale doctrine exists elsewhere. I just looked up the Dutch rules[1], and it turns out it’s very much the same. When a work is sold, the copyrights are “exhausted” and can no longer be invoked for that copy. 1: http://www.iusmentis.com/auteursrecht/spoedcursus/beperkingen/ http://www.iusmentis.com/auteursrecht/spoedcursus/beperkinge... (Dutch)
      - Evbn 14y ago
        That doesn't say anything about a legal right to import a work created under abother country's laws, or a resident of another country's right to import a work from the Netherlands.
      - wtallis 14y ago
        While it appears from your link that the Netherlands may have something similar to first-sale doctrine, many European countries have the exact opposite, droit de suite, which allows for the original author (or their estate) to exercise control over any sale, not just the first.
        ohashi 14y ago
        What is the argument in favor of that?
        Terretta 14y ago
        So that when an artist sells a painting for $10 that gets resold for $100 million, the artist can realize some of the true value of the work they produced.
        ohashi 14y ago
        Why should they though? They thought it was worth $10. Why is their pricing mistake rewarded?
- andrewcooke 14y ago
  you can buy these books on the internet at places like AbeBooks and AdLibris. they're called "international editions" and sometimes are restricted to non-US customers (i think; i don't pay much attention because i am not in the US). sometimes the paper seems to be of lower quality (thinner). here's one http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=7512020183&searchurl=an%3Dcormen%26sts%3Dt http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=7512020183&... with, as far as i can tell, no restriction (it has US shipping rates).
Surio 14y ago
Exactly! I would upvote you twice if I could, so this point comes up more prominently The main article itself conveniently glosses over it, and makes one of those scary, "mountain out of a molehill" case: if big evil corporate fat cat wins, then, >>all your base are belong to us<< But then again, that kind of news wouldn't sell papers, or would it?
larrys 14y ago
"Can someone just disrupt these folks out of existence already?" Charging people different pricing in different locations or at different times or to different buyers is not in itself wrong (although it can be). Restaurants regularly give "senior" discounts, "ladies for free" as well as offer discounts if you dine at different times. Is that fair to me if I only dine on Saturday night? (Or what they do by having special menus for New Years Eve or other occasions where the price is higher than on normal nights). It's not about fair. Companies do what they have to do in order to make a profit and in some cases that involves legally charging different buyers different prices. I'm able to make a better deal, for example, at a car dealer because presumably I can negotiate better than some other people. As a result the car dealer trying to rip off a newbie subsidizes my sale and allows them to charge me less (so they can meet their manufacturer volume requirements) If the companies could charge more overseas perhaps they would. In any case the volume in sales they make offsets the price that they have to charge in the US as well. It's entirely possible that if they tried to sell at the higher price overseas they would have less total volume manufactured and as a result the price in the US would be higher than it is. I drive a fairly expensive car. If the manufacturer wants to price it at a lower cost in some new market overseas and they can lower their costs doing so and sell me my next car at a lower price (but not as low as overseas) that's fine with me. I don't know and I'm not saying this is what's happening with textbooks. I am merely pointing out that the constant use of "disrupt" doesn't always take into account the reasons why things are the way they are.

nekojima 14y ago

I bought those books when I lived in Asia. The savings are huge, upwards of 80%. On the cover it does say "Not for Resale in North America & Europe" or "Not for Resale outside of (country)" on the cover. One note though, these books are usually an "international" edition which excludes some of the content usually found in the North American & European editions, including STEM subjects, which I initially found rather surprising. When I first saw these editions more than ten years ago I had the same thought, of setting up a website and selling to North America and Europe. The main issues were finding sufficient supply (university libraries only order a certain amount for their own students) and that the editions were different. That can make a difference for some subjects and for the assignments.

gambiting 14y ago
the "not for resale" note on the cover is completely meaningless. They could also say "if you open this book you owe us 1 billion dollars" and the effect would also be the same - it would have zero ground to stand on in court.
- rprasad 14y ago
  Actually, when it comes to sales across borders, "Not for Resale Outside of [X country or region" has legal effect in every country that respects copyright. First-sale doctrine is a uniquely American idea; it only applies to (first) sales subject to the jurisdiction of American courts. I.e., it would apply to a sale by Amazon to some dude in Japan and to a sale by Amazon JP to some guy in California, but not to a sale by Amazon KOR to some guy in China, who then resells into the U.S.
  - sjmulder 14y ago
    Of course the US laws on copyright only apply to the US, but the idea behind the first-sale doctrine exists elsewhere. I just looked up the Dutch rules[1], and it turns out it’s very much the same. When a work is sold, the copyrights are “exhausted” and can no longer be invoked for that copy. 1: http://www.iusmentis.com/auteursrecht/spoedcursus/beperkingen/ http://www.iusmentis.com/auteursrecht/spoedcursus/beperkinge... (Dutch)
    - Evbn 14y ago
      That doesn't say anything about a legal right to import a work created under abother country's laws, or a resident of another country's right to import a work from the Netherlands.
    - wtallis 14y ago
      While it appears from your link that the Netherlands may have something similar to first-sale doctrine, many European countries have the exact opposite, droit de suite, which allows for the original author (or their estate) to exercise control over any sale, not just the first.
      - ohashi 14y ago
        What is the argument in favor of that?
        Terretta 14y ago
        So that when an artist sells a painting for $10 that gets resold for $100 million, the artist can realize some of the true value of the work they produced.
        ohashi 14y ago
        Why should they though? They thought it was worth $10. Why is their pricing mistake rewarded?
andrewcooke 14y ago
you can buy these books on the internet at places like AbeBooks and AdLibris. they're called "international editions" and sometimes are restricted to non-US customers (i think; i don't pay much attention because i am not in the US). sometimes the paper seems to be of lower quality (thinner). here's one http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=7512020183&searchurl=an%3Dcormen%26sts%3Dt http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=7512020183&... with, as far as i can tell, no restriction (it has US shipping rates).

Surio 14y ago

Exactly! I would upvote you twice if I could, so this point comes up more prominently The main article itself conveniently glosses over it, and makes one of those scary, "mountain out of a molehill" case: if big evil corporate fat cat wins, then, >>all your base are belong to us<< But then again, that kind of news wouldn't sell papers, or would it?

larrys 14y ago

"Can someone just disrupt these folks out of existence already?" Charging people different pricing in different locations or at different times or to different buyers is not in itself wrong (although it can be). Restaurants regularly give "senior" discounts, "ladies for free" as well as offer discounts if you dine at different times. Is that fair to me if I only dine on Saturday night? (Or what they do by having special menus for New Years Eve or other occasions where the price is higher than on normal nights). It's not about fair. Companies do what they have to do in order to make a profit and in some cases that involves legally charging different buyers different prices. I'm able to make a better deal, for example, at a car dealer because presumably I can negotiate better than some other people. As a result the car dealer trying to rip off a newbie subsidizes my sale and allows them to charge me less (so they can meet their manufacturer volume requirements) If the companies could charge more overseas perhaps they would. In any case the volume in sales they make offsets the price that they have to charge in the US as well. It's entirely possible that if they tried to sell at the higher price overseas they would have less total volume manufactured and as a result the price in the US would be higher than it is. I drive a fairly expensive car. If the manufacturer wants to price it at a lower cost in some new market overseas and they can lower their costs doing so and sell me my next car at a lower price (but not as low as overseas) that's fine with me. I don't know and I'm not saying this is what's happening with textbooks. I am merely pointing out that the constant use of "disrupt" doesn't always take into account the reasons why things are the way they are.