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So does this mean that the C developers might need to learn Rust or cooperate more with the rust developer team basically?

bmicraft 11mo ago
That's exactly the original question.
eru 11mo ago
I guess in practice you'd want to have Rust installed as part of your local build and test environment. But I don't think you have to learn Rust any more (or any less) than you have to learn Perl or how the config script works. As long as you can detect if/when you break it, you can then either quickly pick up enough to get by (if it's trivial), or you ask around.
- jacquesm 11mo ago
  The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, the rust community better step up in terms of long term commitment to the code they produce because that is the thing that will keep this code in the kernel. This is just first base.
  - simonask 11mo ago
    No matter how hard you try to paint it as such, Rust is not a tribe. This is such a weird characterization. Rust contributions to the Linux kernel were made by individuals, and are very obviously subject to the exact same expectations as other kernel contributions. Maintainers have responsibilities, not “communities”.
    - estebank 11mo ago
      Not only that, those individuals were already Linux kernel contributors. This is not an amorphous external group forcing their will on Linux, it's Linux itself choosing to use Rust.
cogman10 11mo ago
Depends on the change being made. If they completely replace an API then sure, probably. But for most changes, like adding a param to a function or a struct, they basically have to learn nothing. Rust isn't unlike C either. You can write a lot of it in a pretty C like fashion.
- FpUser 11mo ago
  >"Rust isn't unlike C either. You can write a lot of it in a pretty C like fashion." I think that with all of the Rust's borrowing rules the statement is very iffy.
  - simonask 11mo ago
    C has a lot of the same borrowing rules, though, with some differences around strict aliasing versus the shared/exclusive difference in Rust. Most of the things people stub their toe on in Rust coming from C are already UB in C.
  - cogman10 11mo ago
    Rust's borrowing rules might force you to make different architecture choices than you would with C. But that's not what I was thinking about. For a given rust function, where you might expect a C programmer to need to interact due to a change in the the C code, most of the lifetime rules will have already been hammered out before the needed updates to the rust code. It's possible, but unlikely, that the C programmer is going to need to significantly change what is being allocated and how.
    - FpUser 11mo ago
      Not talking allocations, more like actual borrowing, aliasing, passing as parameters.
weebull 11mo ago
Learn rust to a level where all cross language implications are understood, which includes all `unsafe` behaviour (...because you're interfacing with C). Yes it does.

bmicraft 11mo ago

That's exactly the original question.

eru 11mo ago

I guess in practice you'd want to have Rust installed as part of your local build and test environment. But I don't think you have to learn Rust any more (or any less) than you have to learn Perl or how the config script works. As long as you can detect if/when you break it, you can then either quickly pick up enough to get by (if it's trivial), or you ask around.

jacquesm 11mo ago
The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, the rust community better step up in terms of long term commitment to the code they produce because that is the thing that will keep this code in the kernel. This is just first base.
- simonask 11mo ago
  No matter how hard you try to paint it as such, Rust is not a tribe. This is such a weird characterization. Rust contributions to the Linux kernel were made by individuals, and are very obviously subject to the exact same expectations as other kernel contributions. Maintainers have responsibilities, not “communities”.
  - estebank 11mo ago
    Not only that, those individuals were already Linux kernel contributors. This is not an amorphous external group forcing their will on Linux, it's Linux itself choosing to use Rust.

cogman10 11mo ago

Depends on the change being made. If they completely replace an API then sure, probably. But for most changes, like adding a param to a function or a struct, they basically have to learn nothing. Rust isn't unlike C either. You can write a lot of it in a pretty C like fashion.

FpUser 11mo ago
>"Rust isn't unlike C either. You can write a lot of it in a pretty C like fashion." I think that with all of the Rust's borrowing rules the statement is very iffy.
- simonask 11mo ago
  C has a lot of the same borrowing rules, though, with some differences around strict aliasing versus the shared/exclusive difference in Rust. Most of the things people stub their toe on in Rust coming from C are already UB in C.
- cogman10 11mo ago
  Rust's borrowing rules might force you to make different architecture choices than you would with C. But that's not what I was thinking about. For a given rust function, where you might expect a C programmer to need to interact due to a change in the the C code, most of the lifetime rules will have already been hammered out before the needed updates to the rust code. It's possible, but unlikely, that the C programmer is going to need to significantly change what is being allocated and how.
  - FpUser 11mo ago
    Not talking allocations, more like actual borrowing, aliasing, passing as parameters.

weebull 11mo ago

Learn rust to a level where all cross language implications are understood, which includes all `unsafe` behaviour (...because you're interfacing with C). Yes it does.