5 ms·

After all the resistance to Rust in the Linux Kernel, it's finally official. Kudos to the Linux Rust team!

by N_Lens 11mo ago

trueno 11mo ago
wasn't there like a drive by maintainer rejection of something rust related that kind of disrupted the asahi project ? i can't say i followed the developments much but i do recall it being some of that classic linux kernel on broadway theater. i also wonder if that was a first domino falling of sorts for asahi, i legitimately can't tell if that project lives on anymore
- bayindirh 11mo ago
  IIRC, it was not about Rust vs. C, but a commotion rooted from patch quality and not pushing people around about things. Linux Kernel team has this habit of a forceful pushback which breaks souls and hearts when prodded too much. Looks like Hector has deleted his Mastodon account, so I can't look back what he said exactly. Oh, I still have the relevant tab open. It's about code quality: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43043312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43043312
  - chippiewill 11mo ago
    That was a single message in a very large thread. It absolutely was not just about code quality.
    - bayindirh 11mo ago
      Yes, that's the entry of the rabbit hole, and reader is advised to dig their own tunnel. I remember following the tension for a bit. Yes, there are other subjects about how things are done, but after reading it, I remember framing "code quality" as the base issue. In high-stakes software development environments, egos run high generally, and when people clash and doesn't back up, sparks happen. If this warning is ignored, then something has to give. If I'm mistaken, I can enjoy a good explanation and be gladly stand corrected. This is what happened here. This is probably the second or third time I witness this over 20+ years. Most famous one was over CPU schedulers, namely BFS, again IIRC.
      - seba_dos1 11mo ago
        marcan has even publicly ranted about having to send patches as e-mails. This rage quit simply concluded that journey.
  - iurbwdj 11mo ago
    https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/1292 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/1292
    - bayindirh 11mo ago
      Some pretext: I'm a Rust skeptic and tired of Rust Evangelism Task Force and Rewrite in Rust movements. --- Yes. I remember that message. Also let's not forget what marcan said [0] [1]. In short, a developer didn't want their C codebase littered with Rust code, which I can understand, then the Rust team said that they can maintain that part, not complicating his life further (Kudos to them), and the developer lashing out to them to GTFO of "his" lawn (which I understand again, not condone. I'd have acted differently). This again boils down to code quality matters. Rust is a small child when compared to the whole codebase, and weariness from old timers is normal. We can discuss behaviors till the eternity, but humans are humans. You can't just standardize everything. Coming to marcan, how he behaved is a big no in my book, too. Because it's not healthy. Yes, the LKML is not healthy, but this is one of the things which makes you wrong even when you're right. I'm also following a similar discussion list, which has a similar level of friction in some matters, and the correct thing is to taking some time off and touching grass when feeling tired and being close to burnout. Not running like a lit torch between flammable people. One needs to try to be the better example esp. when the environment is not in an ideal shape. It's the hardest thing to do, but it's the most correct path at the same time. [0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20250205004552mp_/https://lwn.net/ml/all/20250131075751.GA16720@lst.de/ https://web.archive.org/web/20250205004552mp_/https://lwn.ne... [1]: https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/404 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/404
      - iurbwdj 11mo ago
        One perspective is that Rust appears to be forced into the Linux kernel through harassment and pressure. Instead of Rust being pulled, carefully, organically and friendly, and while taking good care of any significant objections. Objections like, getting the relevant features from unstable Rust into stable Rust, or getting a second compiler like gccrs (Linux kernel uses gcc for C) fully up and running, or ensuring that there is a specification (the specification donated by/from Ferrous Systems, might have significant issues), or prioritizing the kernel higher than Rust. If I had been enthusiastic about Rust, and wanted to see if it could maybe make sense for Rust to be part of the Linux kernel[0], I would probably had turned my attention to gccrs. What is then extra strange is that there have been some public hostility against gccrs (WIP Rust compiler for gcc) from the rustc (sole main Rust compiler primarily based on LLVM) camp. It feels somewhat like a corporate takeover, not something where good and benign technology is most important. And money is at stake as well, the Rust Foundation has a large focus on fundraising, like how their progenitors at Mozilla/Firefox have or had a large focus on fundraising. And then there are major Rust proponents who openly claim, also here on Hacker News, that software and politics are inherently entwined. [0]: And also not have it as a strict goal to get Rust into the kernel, for there might be the possibility that Rust was discovered not to be a good fit; and then one could work on that lack of fit after discovery and maybe later make Rust a good fit.
  - iurbwdj 11mo ago
    > Looks like Hector has deleted his Mastodon account, so I can't look back what he said exactly. https://archive.md/uLiWX https://archive.md/uLiWX https://archive.md/rESxe https://archive.md/rESxe
    - bayindirh 11mo ago
      Thanks! Let me edit this in, too. Edit: Nah, I can't, too late.
- iurbwdj 11mo ago
  It involved large parts of the Rust community, and the famous Rust developer Hector Martin (with an alter ego of Asahi Lina, a female vtuber, which he appears irrationally embarrassed about), harassing others. Even Linus Torvalds called out Hector Martin. https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/1292 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/1292 > On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 at 01:19, Hector Martin <marcan@marcan.st> wrote: > > If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas. > How about you accept the fact that maybe the problem is you. > You think you know better. But the current process works. > It has problems, but problems are a fact of life. There is no perfect. > However, I will say that the social media brigading just makes me not want to have anything at all to do with your approach. > Because if we have issues in the kernel development model, then social media sure as hell isn't the solution. The same way it sure as hell wasn't the solution to politics. > Technical patches and discussions matter. Social media brigading - no than\k you. > Linus https://archive.md/uLiWX https://archive.md/uLiWX https://archive.md/rESxe https://archive.md/rESxe
  - CursedSilicon 11mo ago
    Is there any evidence "Asahi Lina" is Hector?
    - xphos 11mo ago
      Isn't Asahi Lina Married to some other japanese Vtubber now? I mean maybe you'd fake all that but I doubt it. Both are more likely real people who are different. The people have totally different eccentricties its really hard to fake that type difference for a long time. [source] https://x.com/Lina_Hoshino/status/1862840998897861007 https://x.com/Lina_Hoshino/status/1862840998897861007
    - glenstein 11mo ago
      Thank you for asking this. It was presented matter of fact and I would not have appreciated that it was something less than settled. The best I can find from googling was rumors and speculation (insert comment in reply with more rumors and speculation). I also don't necessarily think it means someone is a Bad Guy if true. I want people to be able to have anonymous alter egos online if that's what they want and they're not doing any harm.
- iknowstuff 11mo ago
  Yes. Linus Torvalds rips into Hellwig for blocking Rust for Linux: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wgLbz1Bm8QhmJ4dJGSmTuV5w_R0Gwvg5kHrYr4Ko9dUHQ@mail.gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wgLbz1Bm8QhmJ4d... The fact is, the pull request you objected to DID NOT TOUCH THE DMA LAYER AT ALL. It was literally just another user of it, in a completely separate subdirectory, that didn't change the code you maintain in _any_ way, shape, or form. I find it distressing that you are complaining about new users of your code, and then you keep bringing up these kinds of complete garbage arguments. Honestly, what you have been doing is basically saying "as a DMA maintainer I control what the DMA code is used for". And that is not how *any* of this works. The other person who replied to you is purposefully referencing a different incident.
drtgh 11mo ago
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Alex-Gaynor-Rust-Maintainer https://www.phoronix.com/news/Alex-Gaynor-Rust-Maintainer << Alex Gaynor recently announced he is formally stepping down as one of the maintainers of the Rust for Linux kernel code with the removal patch now queued for merging in Linux 6.19. Alex Gaynor was one of the original developers to experiment with Rust code for Linux kernel modules. He's drifted away from Rust Linux kernel development for a while due to lack of time and is now formally stepping down as a listed co-maintainer of the Rust code. After Wedson Almeida Filho stepped down last year as a Rust co-maintainer, this now leaves Rust For Linux project leader Miguel Ojeda as the sole official maintainer of the code while there are several Rust code reviewers. >>
- metaltyphoon 11mo ago
  What are you trying to imply?
- meindnoch 11mo ago
  "Yay, we got Rust in the Kernel! ^_^ Ok, now it's your code! Bye!"
  - dlahoda 11mo ago
    high quality educational material
  - vablings 11mo ago
    Then another maintainer will take care of it? This is how kernel development works....
    - hello_moto 11mo ago
      They have less and less resources
  - veber-alex 11mo ago
    1. He left before Rust stopped being experimental. 2. Maintainers come and go all the time, this is how open source works. 3. The only reason Phoronix reports on this is because anytime they mention Rust it attracts rage bait clicks, for example, your comment.
mos87 10mo ago
Due process including fitness for purpose assessment isn't "resistance".

After all the resistance to Rust in the Linux Kernel, it's finally official. Kudos to the Linux Rust team!

by N_Lens 11mo ago

After all the resistance to Rust in the Linux Kernel, it's finally official. Kudos to the Linux Rust team!

trueno 11mo ago

wasn't there like a drive by maintainer rejection of something rust related that kind of disrupted the asahi project ? i can't say i followed the developments much but i do recall it being some of that classic linux kernel on broadway theater. i also wonder if that was a first domino falling of sorts for asahi, i legitimately can't tell if that project lives on anymore

bayindirh 11mo ago
IIRC, it was not about Rust vs. C, but a commotion rooted from patch quality and not pushing people around about things. Linux Kernel team has this habit of a forceful pushback which breaks souls and hearts when prodded too much. Looks like Hector has deleted his Mastodon account, so I can't look back what he said exactly. Oh, I still have the relevant tab open. It's about code quality: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43043312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43043312
- chippiewill 11mo ago
  That was a single message in a very large thread. It absolutely was not just about code quality.
  - bayindirh 11mo ago
    Yes, that's the entry of the rabbit hole, and reader is advised to dig their own tunnel. I remember following the tension for a bit. Yes, there are other subjects about how things are done, but after reading it, I remember framing "code quality" as the base issue. In high-stakes software development environments, egos run high generally, and when people clash and doesn't back up, sparks happen. If this warning is ignored, then something has to give. If I'm mistaken, I can enjoy a good explanation and be gladly stand corrected. This is what happened here. This is probably the second or third time I witness this over 20+ years. Most famous one was over CPU schedulers, namely BFS, again IIRC.
    - seba_dos1 11mo ago
      marcan has even publicly ranted about having to send patches as e-mails. This rage quit simply concluded that journey.
- iurbwdj 11mo ago
  https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/1292 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/1292
  - bayindirh 11mo ago
    Some pretext: I'm a Rust skeptic and tired of Rust Evangelism Task Force and Rewrite in Rust movements. --- Yes. I remember that message. Also let's not forget what marcan said [0] [1]. In short, a developer didn't want their C codebase littered with Rust code, which I can understand, then the Rust team said that they can maintain that part, not complicating his life further (Kudos to them), and the developer lashing out to them to GTFO of "his" lawn (which I understand again, not condone. I'd have acted differently). This again boils down to code quality matters. Rust is a small child when compared to the whole codebase, and weariness from old timers is normal. We can discuss behaviors till the eternity, but humans are humans. You can't just standardize everything. Coming to marcan, how he behaved is a big no in my book, too. Because it's not healthy. Yes, the LKML is not healthy, but this is one of the things which makes you wrong even when you're right. I'm also following a similar discussion list, which has a similar level of friction in some matters, and the correct thing is to taking some time off and touching grass when feeling tired and being close to burnout. Not running like a lit torch between flammable people. One needs to try to be the better example esp. when the environment is not in an ideal shape. It's the hardest thing to do, but it's the most correct path at the same time. [0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20250205004552mp_/https://lwn.net/ml/all/20250131075751.GA16720@lst.de/ https://web.archive.org/web/20250205004552mp_/https://lwn.ne... [1]: https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/404 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/404
    - iurbwdj 11mo ago
      One perspective is that Rust appears to be forced into the Linux kernel through harassment and pressure. Instead of Rust being pulled, carefully, organically and friendly, and while taking good care of any significant objections. Objections like, getting the relevant features from unstable Rust into stable Rust, or getting a second compiler like gccrs (Linux kernel uses gcc for C) fully up and running, or ensuring that there is a specification (the specification donated by/from Ferrous Systems, might have significant issues), or prioritizing the kernel higher than Rust. If I had been enthusiastic about Rust, and wanted to see if it could maybe make sense for Rust to be part of the Linux kernel[0], I would probably had turned my attention to gccrs. What is then extra strange is that there have been some public hostility against gccrs (WIP Rust compiler for gcc) from the rustc (sole main Rust compiler primarily based on LLVM) camp. It feels somewhat like a corporate takeover, not something where good and benign technology is most important. And money is at stake as well, the Rust Foundation has a large focus on fundraising, like how their progenitors at Mozilla/Firefox have or had a large focus on fundraising. And then there are major Rust proponents who openly claim, also here on Hacker News, that software and politics are inherently entwined. [0]: And also not have it as a strict goal to get Rust into the kernel, for there might be the possibility that Rust was discovered not to be a good fit; and then one could work on that lack of fit after discovery and maybe later make Rust a good fit.
- iurbwdj 11mo ago
  > Looks like Hector has deleted his Mastodon account, so I can't look back what he said exactly. https://archive.md/uLiWX https://archive.md/uLiWX https://archive.md/rESxe https://archive.md/rESxe
  - bayindirh 11mo ago
    Thanks! Let me edit this in, too. Edit: Nah, I can't, too late.
iurbwdj 11mo ago
It involved large parts of the Rust community, and the famous Rust developer Hector Martin (with an alter ego of Asahi Lina, a female vtuber, which he appears irrationally embarrassed about), harassing others. Even Linus Torvalds called out Hector Martin. https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/1292 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/6/1292 > On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 at 01:19, Hector Martin <marcan@marcan.st> wrote: > > If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas. > How about you accept the fact that maybe the problem is you. > You think you know better. But the current process works. > It has problems, but problems are a fact of life. There is no perfect. > However, I will say that the social media brigading just makes me not want to have anything at all to do with your approach. > Because if we have issues in the kernel development model, then social media sure as hell isn't the solution. The same way it sure as hell wasn't the solution to politics. > Technical patches and discussions matter. Social media brigading - no than\k you. > Linus https://archive.md/uLiWX https://archive.md/uLiWX https://archive.md/rESxe https://archive.md/rESxe
- CursedSilicon 11mo ago
  Is there any evidence "Asahi Lina" is Hector?
  - xphos 11mo ago
    Isn't Asahi Lina Married to some other japanese Vtubber now? I mean maybe you'd fake all that but I doubt it. Both are more likely real people who are different. The people have totally different eccentricties its really hard to fake that type difference for a long time. [source] https://x.com/Lina_Hoshino/status/1862840998897861007 https://x.com/Lina_Hoshino/status/1862840998897861007
  - glenstein 11mo ago
    Thank you for asking this. It was presented matter of fact and I would not have appreciated that it was something less than settled. The best I can find from googling was rumors and speculation (insert comment in reply with more rumors and speculation). I also don't necessarily think it means someone is a Bad Guy if true. I want people to be able to have anonymous alter egos online if that's what they want and they're not doing any harm.
iknowstuff 11mo ago
Yes. Linus Torvalds rips into Hellwig for blocking Rust for Linux: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wgLbz1Bm8QhmJ4dJGSmTuV5w_R0Gwvg5kHrYr4Ko9dUHQ@mail.gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wgLbz1Bm8QhmJ4d... The fact is, the pull request you objected to DID NOT TOUCH THE DMA LAYER AT ALL. It was literally just another user of it, in a completely separate subdirectory, that didn't change the code you maintain in _any_ way, shape, or form. I find it distressing that you are complaining about new users of your code, and then you keep bringing up these kinds of complete garbage arguments. Honestly, what you have been doing is basically saying "as a DMA maintainer I control what the DMA code is used for". And that is not how *any* of this works. The other person who replied to you is purposefully referencing a different incident.

drtgh 11mo ago

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Alex-Gaynor-Rust-Maintainer https://www.phoronix.com/news/Alex-Gaynor-Rust-Maintainer << Alex Gaynor recently announced he is formally stepping down as one of the maintainers of the Rust for Linux kernel code with the removal patch now queued for merging in Linux 6.19. Alex Gaynor was one of the original developers to experiment with Rust code for Linux kernel modules. He's drifted away from Rust Linux kernel development for a while due to lack of time and is now formally stepping down as a listed co-maintainer of the Rust code. After Wedson Almeida Filho stepped down last year as a Rust co-maintainer, this now leaves Rust For Linux project leader Miguel Ojeda as the sole official maintainer of the code while there are several Rust code reviewers. >>

metaltyphoon 11mo ago
What are you trying to imply?
meindnoch 11mo ago
"Yay, we got Rust in the Kernel! ^_^ Ok, now it's your code! Bye!"
- dlahoda 11mo ago
  high quality educational material
- vablings 11mo ago
  Then another maintainer will take care of it? This is how kernel development works....
  - hello_moto 11mo ago
    They have less and less resources
- veber-alex 11mo ago
  1. He left before Rust stopped being experimental. 2. Maintainers come and go all the time, this is how open source works. 3. The only reason Phoronix reports on this is because anytime they mention Rust it attracts rage bait clicks, for example, your comment.

mos87 10mo ago

Due process including fitness for purpose assessment isn't "resistance".